S03|01 - Sexuality, Motherhood and Personal Identity with Dr Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach as well as a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in the state of Illinois.  She has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. Her teaching and coaching focus on helping LDS individuals and couples achieve greater satisfaction and passion in their emotional and sexual relationships.

What we discuss in this episode:

• How our personal identity is intertwined with our sexuality
• Why intimacy can be a struggle in motherhood and what to do about it
• Low-desire and high-desire partners and the core ingredients for a healthy sexual relationship

Connect with Dr Finlayson-Fife:

Website: www.finlayson-fife.com
Instagram: @finlaysonfife
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/drfinlaysonfife

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I would be honored to be your coach and help you get the changes you want to see in your life. The tools that I talk about in my podcast and use in my coaching have completely turned around my life and my relationships with my children. I know what it takes and how to make it happen. You can use the links below to get more of my content and to learn what we do in my program By Design. I love helping women tap into their inner expert and build radical connection in their relationships with their children.

Link to membership: By Design
Find me on the ‘gram: The.Parenting.Coach
My website: coachcrystal.ca

 

 

Episode Transcript

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Hello, welcome to Season 3. I am so excited to bring you Season 3, I hope you really enjoyed Season 1 and Season 2. If you have, and if you would like more – a little bit more guidance and a little bit more support – make sure that you check out my monthly membership for moms. 

It is called By Design, and it is currently open for enrollment, so make sure you go check it out before the doors close. It will be closing for three months, and not open again until December. So, give that a checkout. 

But I am really excited to bring you Season 3. We have guest experts from all over that I'm interviewing, and they're all people that I love learning from, and I really chose them intentionally because I feel like they'll be so helpful and powerful to you. 

If you have any other ideas of people that you think would be great to have as a guest on my podcast, make sure that you reach out to me on Instagram, but let us dig into today's episode.

 

Meet Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

I am so happy to welcome Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife; and today we're talking about Sexuality, Motherhood and Personal Identity. Dr. Finlayson-Fife is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach, as well as a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in the state of Illinois. 

She has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. Her teaching and coaching focus on helping LDS individuals and couples achieve greater satisfaction and passion in their emotional and sexual relationships. 

In addition to consultation with couples and individuals – in person and online – she teaches online relationship and sexuality courses designed to foster self and sexual development and create happier relationships and individuals. 

Dr. Finlayson-Fife also offers many live workshops and retreats for couples and individuals. Jennifer is a frequent guest on LDS-themed podcasts and writes articles for LDS-themed blogs and magazines on the subjects of sexuality, relationships, mental health, and faith. 

Hi, and welcome. I'm so excited to have you on my podcast. Thank you for being here.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Thanks for having me.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: All right. So, I know a lot about you, but I don't know how many of my listeners do. So, first of all, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about you, what you do; and then, also just kind of what got you into this space. Like, why are you even interested in it in the first place?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Okay. So, I'm Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I am a coach and licensed therapist and instructor. 

And I work primarily with the Latter-day Saint population because I wrote my dissertation on Mormon Women and Sexual Agency; because I was really interested in on a patriarchal impact on women's sense of agency, and also faith-based culture and how it impacts sexuality and the meanings around sexuality – and how all of that shapes women's decision-making and sense of self around sex. 

So, it was a very interesting dissertation; I really loved it. And so, my work has just kind of naturally led me to working with faith-based women, couples. 

I'm also doing more work with men, but really my goal in the instruction and coaching that I do is helping people to develop in their lives, and to develop more capacity for emotional and sexual intimacy so that they have more peaceful relationships. And so, I do a lot of that through online teaching and one-on-one coaching, and so on.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah, that sounds awesome. That dissertation just sounds so interesting. Like all of the combination of all of those things, that sounds awesome. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay, so I-- Yeah, go ahead.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Oh, I was just thinking I didn't really answer your second question, which is what brought me into the work. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I mean, I think the simple answer is just that as a kid, I was just always interested in human behavior; and, in particular, in relationships and why some people were happy in their lives and happy in their relationships, and why others were not. 

So, it's just always been a natural draw and puzzle for me that I've cared about. And so, that just kind of with time naturally, led me into pursuing this line of work, which I've absolutely loved.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, I love that; that is exactly how I describe myself when I was growing up. I was just so interested in human behavior; and so, I immediately went into school to take Psychology because I thought, 'I just want to figure this out.' 

And the relationship that I'm really interested, is in the parent-child relationship. I'm just so interested in the dynamics there and what makes it work, and what are effective relationships and what aren't, and how to make that healthy; but I love this, I love this idea. 

And so, what comes up for a lot of my clients is sexuality and intimacy issues. And so, that's what I wanted to dig into with you because you're such an expert in this field.

 

Why moms struggle to be comfortable during intimacy

So, my first question for you is, why do you think it's such a struggle for moms to be comfortable during intimacy? So, either, you know, I see this during pregnancy, but often when their kids are little; but even when kids are older, it can still be a struggle for moms. 

And some of them have mentioned, you know, body image issues or not being comfortable with their bodies, but I'm sure that there's more to that as well. So yeah, I would love for you to chat about that.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, one thing is that especially, this is especially true in Western – well, more accurately even puritanical culture, is this idea that sexuality is antithetical to maternal instincts. 

So, that is that sexuality is kind of base and desire-based and selfish, maybe; and motherhood is selfless and desireless and, kind of, self-sacrifice. And for a lot of people – religious or not – that they have inherited these ideas that those two do not mix well. 

So, a lot of women I work with who were happy with their sexuality, you know, comfortable enough with it in early marriage; once they got pregnant and had a baby, there's this sort of almost unwitting desire to distance from sexuality as a way of creating a safe space for the child – a way of almost fulfilling an identity about what it means to be a good mother. 

And I think these are not particularly helpful. I mean, on one hand, there's a part of it that I really do understand and I think actually has a place which I can articulate – if you want – but I think that this is not a helpful, this is too limited of an idea about motherhood and too limited of an idea about sexuality.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. I love that, because that totally jives with what I teach. I feel like people feel like they have to lose themselves in motherhood or they have to be selfless and that that's the way to be. But what I have seen is actually when we do focus on the self, when we figure out ourself, when we feel more confident in ourself, when we take better care of ourselves – that's where our best parenting comes from, and it flows naturally and it's not so forced. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That’s right.

 

How our personal identity is intertwined with our sexuality

Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, I would love to hear your take. You said, you know, if you want me to talk more about this, what is the place that that has, So, why is that sometimes effective? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, so there, there is a biological aspect of this division between sexuality and motherhood that I think is at least, early on. And that is to say, early on, all of your resources are really about keeping this baby alive. 

And so, there is a natural, sort of, suppression of self that happens in the earliest stages that is functional. And by that, I mean you're getting up at 2:00 AM and then again at 4:00 AM for nursing – even though your breasts hurt – and you are doing all kinds of things--

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: -for this little person to thrive, and that's valuable. And thinking about sex in those times is probably a lot less likely; you're also sleep-deprived – hormonally, you're probably pretty whacked-out. 

You know, the ability to kind of even do the things you used to do is so disrupted that it makes sense that belonging to your sexual sense of self would be unlikely during this period. I would say nothing's going wrong because it's all-hands-on-deck for a higher purpose.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Where I think it goes wrong is that a lot of times people get sort of locked into that rather than a temporary place in which they are momentarily – or for an episode or for a period – putting some of this aside for this larger goal. 

A lot of people have learned like, this is the way to be a mother – always in this intense self-sacrifice, this desireless through your children. You know, you don't belong to your--  

You know, sexuality is so linked to belonging to your sense of self. And if you've learned that to be a good mother, you shouldn't – then it's hard to believe that there is a legitimate place for that within the family.

 

Lost in motherhood: How do you find your personal identity?

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah, I totally, and I feel like even in my own experience, my own story was like this; like I feel very, like, I kind of just got stuck in that motherhood, losing my sense of self – not really knowing, what do I like, what do I-- Like, I wasn't pursuing my education or my passions anymore. 

And it was really finding that again, that really helped my parenting in such a huge way and helped really every area of my life. And I see that in my clients so often too, where they feel lost. 

They'll often use those words like, "I feel lost in my motherhood." And when I say, "Well, you know, try doing something that you enjoy again, try finding your passion." They're like, I have no idea. Like, I don't even know where to start." 

So, where do you encourage people to start when they're feeling that way?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, I think the first thing is to help challenge the idea that it's a virtue to have suppressed yourself so deeply; or the idea that it's a kind of zero-sum game – that if you do something that matters to you, you're taking away from your children.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I remember thinking that, like when in the midst of the thick of parenting for me, we had the ability to add onto our house. And the other thing I really cared about and also studied for a couple years was Interior Design.

So, I was thrilled at the opportunity to be involved in creating a space that was really functional and cost-efficient and so on. I felt guilty at first, like when I'm out pricing stone countertops, like it was a thrill. 

And also, I would feel like, you know, somehow, I'm taking away from my children if I'm doing this. And it took me a bit to realize that when I would come home and have enjoyed that hour-and-a-half so much, and then to come back and see that I enjoyed my children more, even when I came home and they'd had good care while I was gone, that this was not--  

It was starting to make me see that there is something to me thriving outside of motherhood that actually blesses my motherhood.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes. Yes. It really is that our brain just goes to the all-or-nothing of like, 'I have to just spend all my time with my kids' or 'I have to spend all my time on myself'. 

But it's this perfect center space where we accept that we have our own identity, and we accept that our children have their own identity. And we also like exactly what you said, we accept that spending time outside of our motherhood, doing things that fuel us and fuel our passions and that we're interested in – can nourish us so that then we actually parent so much better.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes, absolutely. And you know, for people that are in that black-and-white thinking, often it's, they've been inducted into it. I remember there was some song when I was in college within my religious community that was like, "My mom loved me so much that she gave up her PhD", and just that idea that love is about my mother not having a life of her own. 

And that's a really compelling idea, but not a particularly valuable one because if you don't develop a self and you live through your children – then you are constantly looking to them to reinforce your sense of being enough, being legitimate, being sufficient. 

And if you're looking to your children for that, you're not going to have it; you're going to basically be pressuring them paradoxically to take care of you--

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: -rather than you being able to sustain your sense of self and live a of joyful life, and love them and show them how to live a joyful life.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: It's like your sense of love for yourself is reliant on them and their actions. So, if they choose a path that you don't necessarily agree with or you don't want them to choose, then you're like, 'Oh, that's my fault. This has to do with me and my parenting.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah. Or pressure them to do what makes you feel good – but that's not about love, that's about use of the child.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Right. Right. So, it's almost like when we can find our own identity and focus on our own identity, that we actually allow them to have the freedom to have their identity as well. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: It's like this beautiful synergistic relationship that we can get into when we can release that, that control and that black-and-white thinking, like you said.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, going back to sexuality, let's talk about any suggestions that you have for someone that feels like they want to be more comfortable with their sexuality and maybe they're on the path of, you know, belonging and trying to figure out where they belong and maybe they're doing kind of that identity-building stuff that we can do, but still finding it difficult to be comfortable during intimacy. What would you suggest?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, let me first actually go back because I think I didn't ever fully answer your first question, which was like, first of all, it's seeing what you're doing, but I think the second thing is starting to develop aspects of yourself. 

Like it's challenging this selfless, selfish idea like, I'm either one or the other – but it's also, what are the things that really matter to me? What are--  

 

How to be more comfortable with your sexuality

There's a time and a season and if you're in the thick of young parenting, it may not be the right season, but; how do I develop parts of my life, my identity, my capacities that matter to me? 

Because this self-development and this capacity development is very much linked to a sense of your own solidness, your own self-reliance, your own ability to not be dependent on your husband or your children or your social group to tell you you're enough, but that you are actually developing skills and abilities that extend beyond parenting. 

So, this is just about developing-- This is like self-defining activity. This is developing capacity, efficacy, and a sense of self that is broader than the particular role of mothering; and this is linked and foundational to sexual development because as I said earlier, belonging to a sense of self is very linked to belonging to your sexuality. 

We are inherently embodied beings. If we reject our body, we reject our sexuality; it is integrally tied to rejecting ourselves. Now, this is a lot of what feminism has said about the impact of messaging that shames women's bodies or shames their sexuality, that this is a way of controlling women and keeping them limited. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: If you look at like Fundamentalist Islam, the shaming of the female form and of her sexuality is much more overt. There's clitorectomies backers. It's like your power of your sexuality should be shamed and shrouded and curtailed, that's a way of keeping control of women. 

And if you want to be strong, you have to be comfortable in your own skin. You can't feel that you are somehow a threat because of your sexual nature or somehow inferior because of your embodiment. 

And so, this tendency to shame and inhibit ourselves so that we're not too much for others is to self-betray and to undermine our peace with ourselves. That's very, very important to being able to love, and to offer oneself, and to be authentic, and to be honest in the world. 

And to the degree that we're trying to earn our value or show the world things that we think that can tolerate, hide the parts of ourselves, we think it can't, the more inhibited and fear-based we are. And so, this making peace with oneself and one's embodiment and one's sexuality is extraordinarily important. 

And sometimes, it means looking directly at the messages that you received around your sexuality or around your embodiment that are interfering with you making some peace with it.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, where do you suggest people start then? Like this, I love what you just said and how you're tying this all in together, because it's not something I've really thought of before, how this sexuality had to do with our own self-identity and our own belonging. 

And you know, all of this is so interesting. And if someone's listening to this episode and is like, 'Yes, yes, yes,' where do they start? Like, what would they practically do to help them get there?

 

Embracing your sexuality: Where do you start?

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So, you know, I teach an online course called The Art of Desire. What I do for probably the first half of the course is help people to see the messages that they've received around; what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a good woman – you know, how she relates to sexuality, how she relates to desire, how she relates to other people's desires. 

Because whether religious or not, these are very common ideas that women are either given and/or gravitate towards because women tend to be very good at tracking what other people want. It's a survival thing for a baby that a woman can track very easily what that child wants, right? 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: But when you're super aware of what everybody wants from you all the time, it's very hard to know what you want, and to quiet some of that enough to know who you are in that equation, right? 

So, when you're saying, how do people do it? First of it, is turning on the lights enough to see what you actually are participating in, because you can't change what you can't see. 

So, my first goal in working with people is to help them see the meanings that they are living, whether or not they are articulated to themselves because in seeing it, you now have more agency, more freedom to choose differently. 

Now, it may make you anxious to choose differently because in your family you may have learned that denying sexuality or covering up all the time or acting like your husband is offending you by wanting to be sexual with you; meaning lots of people take these messages in just by watching their own families, and don't even know that they're operating within them. 

So, the more you can see them and see what effect they have or what their meaning is, the more you have the ability to choose differently. 

You know, the second half of the course is about offering women a new way of thinking about sexuality and embodiment and embracing of these things much in the way I was just talking about, which is to see it as a function of belonging to your strengths. 

Not as, you know, producing something for a husband by being sexual. Nobody's going to-- No good woman, no solid woman's going to want that. Nobody wants to service a man for life, right? 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: But if she sees her sexuality as part of embracing her own capacity and no longer self-betraying by accepting her body as it is – not as magazines might dictate, it should be, something like that. 

As soon as we start to see that as, 'This is a way of being true to myself, offering the kindness and the compassion and the acceptance that I want from others, I at least am going to offer it to myself', that's an act of courage. 

It's an act of self-respect; and it sets you up to be more at peace with yourself and unapologetic for your desires, for your capacity, for your strength, for your sexuality. Because if you're going to be in a sexually intimate marriage or relationship, you can't be anxious and apologetic because otherwise, you're going to be hiding and managing what's knowable about you. 

When sex is really good, it's free. And the only way for it to be free and honest is to be accepting enough of yourself that you're okay with being known, flaws and all.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, I love this. I love this. I've never thought of the idea of our sexuality being that self-acceptance. Like I'm all about self-acceptance, you know, affecting our parenting and that it just flows naturally; but it's like, our sexual life will also flow naturally if we can accept ourselves. 

And I love that you said you can't change what you can't see because it's so true. If we don't see all of the different, even now, like not just how we were raised, but there's just like a constant bombardment of like, 'This is how your body should look, this is what sexuality should be, this is how you should be or shouldn't be'. 

And all of that messaging that we get – even subliminally or whatever – is just hugely affecting our own self-image.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right. That's right.

 

The main core ingredients to a healthy sexual relationship with your partner

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Thank you. I love that. What do you think are some kind of core ingredients to have a healthy sexual relationship with your partner?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, I think one core ingredient – and it's, you know, very much in line with what we're talking about, which – is that you see your sexuality and your pleasure as on par with your spouse’s. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So again, you know, I work with people who've grown up in pretty traditional ideas about sexuality and masculinity and femininity. And a lot of my clients see the woman's desire as secondary to the man's. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Now, LDS couples are not the only people who think like this, believe me. I mean, just even Viagra, we don't have really an equivalent for women.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: I mean, men's pleasure is clearly valued by society; and women's is more like an afterthought and good for her as she gets a little pleasure, but not seen as kind of fundamental. 

And so, you know, many of my clients, heard messages from their parents or from their mother on their wedding day saying things like, you know, "Don't ever tell him, no, if you want them to not stray." So, that's just an idea that your sexuality as a woman is there to service the man.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah, it's like it belongs to them instead of it belonging to you.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Exactly. And so, your sexuality is legitimate by capitulating to the man's sexuality. Well, this is just a setup to absolutely hate it because it's connected to a kind of self-betrayal. 

And in the realm of sexuality, you know, it's one thing to feel like you're kind of being used because your friend borrows a book and doesn't ever return it or something. Sexuality is so intimate that it's a very core way to self-betray, and so it doesn't go well in marriages if that's the meaning that's being lived out. 

So, I think that, you know, the idea that the sexuality isn't legitimately the woman's also, is just a setup for resentment and frustration and anger. And so, couples that do best, believe that this is a shared endeavor; this is a team sport, that both people's pleasure matters. 

Not just what one person wants and if the other will capitulate or accommodate, that's miserable and misery-inducing for both. Because if a woman's just capitulating or accommodating, the man never feels desired; so, he might get sex but never feel wanted. 

And so, if you're going to really want this, it has to be something that both like and enjoy. Now, one person can't control whether or not both enjoy it; both people have to approach it as, how do we create something we want? 

And that takes some courage because if a woman has learned, 'Oh, the way to be a woman is to kind of deny that you want anything,' or 'you know, the man's going to show you the way into good sex' or, you know, 'I'm just going to keep the kids in my head for the whole evening and hopefully he can break through it'; I mean, that is just not going to work. 

You have to be also committed to creating something desirable and rejuvenating – something where you do feel free, not like you're trying to be what he wants. And of course, your husband could be in that bad position of, 'Hey, you know, you should take care of me.' 

But you can challenge that framing by who you are, and how you address and talk about who you are as a couple and what you want. I see a lot of people who just kind of move into resentment and withholding as a way of handling some of those negative meanings rather than stepping toward it, addressing it with some courage and creating something stronger between them through that honest process.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, I love that because I do think so many times, we're just afraid of it. So, I love that you use the word 'courage' because it's like, we're still going to be afraid maybe to have that conversation, but opening up the communication and being like, 'This might be a little bit of a awkward conversation for the both of us, because we haven't talked about this before, but--'  

And just opening it up and talk, having the courage to talk about it. I think that's a huge ingredient of that healthy sexual relationship.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes, exactly.

 

Low-desire Vs. High-desire partners

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay, so another one thing that I wanted to ask you about was this-- I feel like this comes up so often; I've heard it so many times that I wonder if it's just kind of thought of as the norm where there's kind of like an over-desire partner and an under-desire partner, and there has to be one in the other. I don't know if that really is the case or not, but-- If you have any ideas on how to help that, but also, is that kind of the norm that you see?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, you know, Dr. Schnarch – who wrote the book Passionate Marriage, and I've done quite a bit of training with – you know, he said, you know, "There's always a higher and a lower desire person." 

And I think that's technically true in the sense that, even if both people want it, one might want it a little bit more than the other. That is to say, very seldom are couples like always matched at all times. I mean, I think that's obvious. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Right.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Whether or not there is a problematic pattern of one high and one low, that's a different issue. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So, there's two different factors playing in. One is that there are differences in people, right? So, I think of it sometimes in terms of music. There's some people who just love music; they listen to it all the time, they have natural musical ability. 

They find it just-- It's like a language that's super easy. And other people that, you know; are tone-deaf, don't have as much natural musical ability, don't understand music as well, and--  

And I think it's similar in sex. So, there is biological differences around sexual curiosity, interest, fashion. But much like music, sexuality is kind of part of being human. I mean, there is the rare condition of amusia and probably the rare condition of asexuality, then there's this spectrum of interest. 

And I think there's, you know, a lot of inherent suppression of sexuality that would be very different than in the musical realm because there's no shame around music or very little--  

But in sexuality, there's a lot of shame and anxiety. So, it drives these punctuated differences in my experience. So, there may be natural differences, but then there's often these artificial differences that are being driven more, by the way the couple is handling the anxiety around sex, and the issues around belonging to one's self and comfort with one's self that get played out in a sexual power struggle that looks like high desire and low desire. 

So, oftentimes in the couples I work with, it can look like the woman is the one who has the sexual anxiety because she's low desire; she's shut the whole project down, she has no interest in it and it's easy to be like, 'Wow, she's so broken, you know, what's her problem? Let's get her fixed, and then this couple will be fine.' 

That's an easy idea, when I used to think. But in reality, often that person, the woman is shutting her sexuality down in part – in part because she is anxious about it, in part because she believes that a woman can't be good and be sexual – but also because she doesn't want to be propping up this guy's ego for life, she doesn't want to be serving his needs. 

One quick way out of this is to say, "I have no feelings; I'm asexual, I have very little feeling, I'm just different than you and back off." Okay. And so, the good judgment in it is in, I don't want to manage how you feel about you all the time through sexuality. 

The man often has an artificially inflated desire, and I'm just doing this in a gender stereotype way because I've definitely seen it in the other direction for the same reasons. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Right. Right. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And like, where the man is anxious about sex, shuts it all down; and then the woman's the high desire one trying to get reassurance through him wanting her, which he never offers and then it makes her higher desire. 

Same with the man in this way of thinking about it, that he feels rejected sexually, has anxiety about; his own sexuality, his own desirability, his own personhood – just like the woman does. 

But the way he handles it is, 'Want me, accept me, make my sexuality legitimate, make me feel okay. What's your problem? I have needs.' You know, a lot of times, men are fed these lines in our culture to kind of pressure their entitlement, which only ends up backfiring and working against them. 

And the woman's like, 'Okay, I'll give you sex because you have your stupid needs,' but it's not passion or it doesn't validate him; it doesn't make him feel wanted or sufficient. And so, then it makes him go looking for it again; make me feel like I'm okay, accept me in this way. 

And so, there's this power struggle that's really based in the desire to get a sense of legitimacy through either not wanting sex or wanting it, but both are struggling with the same thing, just in different forms.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife’s courses on relationship and sexuality

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, that is so fascinating. Is your-- So, your workshop that you do out of desire – you've talked about that on this call – is it for both parts of the couple, like male and female can both go to that?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: So, I have, no-- The Art of Desire is the women's course. And I just developed the men's course which is called The Art of Loving. So, it's helping-- These are both individual online courses that you can take that help you to see your role in this – well, to see your relationship to yourself more clearly-- 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: -how that impacts your marriage or partnership, to see your relationship to sexuality; and where you're struggling in your relationship to your own sexuality, desires, and embodiment. 

It can look different between men and women, but men and women both struggle with this because it's fundamental to kind of self-acceptance and self-development; and then, how this plays out in the dynamic in your marriage and what you can do about it. 

I also have two couples’ courses that, you know, one is a Relationship course to see how you are participating in dynamics that may be comfortable and familiar to you in your marriage – but that create resentment and unhappiness and constriction, and what you can do about it. 

And then, I have a Couple's Sexuality Course to better see – like, you can't change what you can't see – to see the meanings that you've fallen into as a couple that have killed passion between you, that have made these desire differences more punctuated; and how in seeing them, you can engage differently to create more freedom and openness and intimacy in your partnership. 

So, they're really designed to be instructional and self-diagnosing, like to be able to see yourself clearly enough to know how to do differently.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah, I love that because when you were talking about the low desire and high desire, and how it's kind of amplified or exacerbated artificially, I think that-- I see this often, and like what you said, it is can be gendered stereotypical, but I've seen it the other way as well. 

And so, I think doing something together or even individually but both kind of having that same mission of like, 'Okay, we're going to-- We're going to try and, you know, feel healthier sexually and have a better relationship and figure out this whole intimacy thing,' I think to do it together would be so powerful. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, I love that you offer both of those options.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes, it is. And yeah, when couples do it together, it's super powerful because all the wheels in the car are all, start pointing in the same direction. But it's also true that even if one person starts to address their half, it breaks the negative dynamic and then opens up the possibility of the other person starting to look at and see their half because their half is no longer working in the way it used to.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Exactly. I call this like the dance, like you're like always dancing the waltz or whatever and then the one person stops. I usually talk about this in regards to parenting, but it's really any relationship, right? 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: As soon as we start to shift and change, they're going to have to be like, 'Okay, wait, what are my moves now? Like, how do I-- How do I shift this?' So, if you're listening to this and your husband is not interested in, you know, taking these courses or talking about these things, you can still have find huge help and huge changes through just doing this work yourself. 

And thank you, thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing--  

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: My pleasure.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: -all of your knowledge because it's just an aspect and a dynamic of it that I hadn't ever really thought about, that belonging and self-identity being so connected to our sexuality. 

And also, just addressing this topic of the high desire and low desire partner because I do think that that is something that comes up so often for so many people. So, I think it'll be really helpful. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Great.

 

Where you can find Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. I would love to ask you, first of all, where my listeners can go to find you; and then lastly, if you want to just share like one kind of final tip that you think would be helpful for my listeners.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Sure. Sure. So, you can find me at my website – it’s probably the best place to go – which is finlayson-fife.com. There's a hyphen between Finlayson and Fife. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And on there you can learn about my courses, you can learn about live workshops that we're doing. Also, my podcast archive, which is, you know, hundreds of interviews or hundreds of hours anyway of interviews, of me talking about spirituality and sexuality and all these things. 

And then, I also have a free Facebook group where people can get access to free resources from me. I do it once a month. I teach a class for an hour on a different topic that's been coming up in the group, and also get information and input and perspective from other people in the group. So, anyway.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: I love that. What is your Facebook group called?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: It's called Ask-- I can never remember because it's so complicated, Ask an LDS Marriage and Sexuality Therapist is the name of it.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. Okay, that is a mouthful. Okay, Ask an LDS Marriage and Sexuality Therapist.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yeah, Marriage and Sexuality therapist.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Marriage and Sexuality therapist.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: And even though it's LDS, there's a lot of non-LDS people on there, actually, who just find these perspectives to be helpful; just with the courses as well, a lot of people take them that are not religious even. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Because I'm just teaching very much like today's conversation, teaching principles and ideas that help people see who they are and how they can, how they can improve.

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife’s final tip

Crystal The Parenting Coach: I love that it's so needed in the world and so needed, not even in just the realm of, you know, people that have grown up religious, but I think everyone struggles with these things – with belonging and identity and sexuality. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Yes. That's right. That's right.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, I think it'll be so helpful. So, what's one tip that you feel like you could leave us with?

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Well, I think the thing I would maybe say in conclusion is that developing your deeper peace with yourself, with your embodiment, with your sexuality; and actually creating a more peaceful and joyful relationship with your spouse, is one of the kindest things you can do for your children. 

They don't need to be privy to your sexual relationship, of course, but for them to see that you are comfortable in your own skin, that you are at peace with your body, that you like it when their dad touches you, you know, that is a way of giving, resolving for them these anxieties. 

Now, not that they won't have to work out some of that themselves, but if they see like marriage can actually be joyful, you know, you really can be at peace with yourself and your body – you just spare them a lot of the self-doubt, fear, anxiety, self-rejection, and controlling behaviors that follow from that by you working it out yourself. 

So, rather than seeing it as, 'Oh, I'll work out my sexuality, but that's separate from parenting,' I think is very connected to being a good parent. And making the more perverse forms of sexuality less compelling because there's a way to really integrate one's sexuality into one's moral life.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. It's like a wholeness. It's like everything just kind of flows when you focus on that belonging and that self-identity. And what I talk about all the time is like, focus on your relationship, focus on your connection, and then model behavior. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That’s right.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Those are like the two main focuses of what I teach. And so, I love this idea of modeling the behavior of you, and you becoming and being comfortable with yourself, but then also modeling what a healthy sexual relationship looks like, and then being able to give that to our children because they'll be able to see it all through their childhood. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: That's right. That's right.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Thank you. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: You’re welcome.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: I think that was just a perfect end. Thank you so much for coming on today. 

 

Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: My pleasure.

Crystal The Parenting Coach: I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Make sure that you give it Five Stars on Apple, and check out my monthly membership for moms in the show notes.