S03|05 - Parenting Against the Grain with Dr Deborah Macnamara, Part 2

Deborah is a dynamic teacher and experienced counsellor with over 20 years experience in educational and mental health settings. The underlying purpose of her work is to put adults in the driver’s seat by making sense of kids from the inside out. She is passionate in taking developmental science and making it applicable to everyday life in the home and classroom. From everyday questions to complex problems, strategies for making headway with a child or teen is grounded in a rich developmental framework.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara provides counselling and educational services to parents and professionals based on the relational-developmental approach of Dr. Gordon Neufeld. She is on Faculty at the Neufeld Institute and presents on all of the Neufeld material. She is the author of the best selling book, Rest, Play, Grow: Making Sense of Preschoolers (or anyone who acts like one), and her new children’s picture book, The Sorry Plane.

What we discuss in this episode:

• How we can Rest, Play, and Grow as adults
• Counter-will and its purpose in development
• Oppositional children

Connect with Dr MacNamara: https://macnamara.ca/
IG: @drdeborahmacnamara
Her books: Sorry Plane & Rest Play Grow

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Episode Transcript

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Hey, I'm Crystal, a certified life coach and mom of four. In this podcast, we combine radical connection and positive parenting theories with the How-To Life Coaching Tools and Mindset Work to completely transform our relationship with our children.

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How we can Rest, Play, and Grow as adults

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Hi, and welcome to Part 2, Parenting Against the Grain with Dr. Deborah MacNamara. If you're just tuning in now and you missed last week's episode, make sure that you go and check it out. It was super good. 

We talk all about how she got into this work. We talk about her book, Rest, Play, Grow, and what it's about and how it affected my personal parenting journey. And we talk about how Parenting Against the Grain is really intuitive and necessary for healthy parent-child relationships. 

What we're going to dig into in this episode, we're just going to pick up where we left off last in the middle of our conversation and here, we are talking about how we can rest, play, and grow as adults, which I think is such a helpful conversation to have. And we're also going to dig into Counter-will, and its purpose in development; and oppositional children. 

So, it's a really interesting episode, and I'm sure you will enjoy it. Whatever she said really helped me to shift my expectation around it being like so concrete. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Yes. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Like I was like, I know all this developmental stuff, and you know, I did all those things and what was really missing was that environment, right? 

If the child's not going to nourish, your plant's not going to nourish if you're like, if you have it in the dark all the time. And so, I was reacting to him so negatively every time that he would, you know, have a strong emotion. 

And then, I'm wondering why he can't rest, right, when he's like constantly in a state of alarm. And so, it really helped shift my expectation to be like, 'Okay, that's fine – maybe this won't never happen, maybe this will take years, maybe he'll be 17 and we won't have figured this out,' which on the one side sounds a little bit hopeless, but it really helped me just release that expectation I had of exactly what age he should shift into this next level of maturity. 

And what's funny is when I could release that expectation, then I dealt with him so much better; and then his behavior did change, and he did grow into maturity and his meltdowns are like 90% better. 

Like he is just the most well-behaved little sensitive child that you would ever know; and he's just a completely different person. And I know that it happened from that shift and me not being so strict and like, 'Well, it has to happen at this day and time because this is what this, you know, it says in this chapter of the book or whatever.'

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: It says-- And you know, here's the thing, we were never meant to pay this close attention to development. And the reason that we have to is because we have no intuition and insight – no cultural norms about what and how we should treat our young children; we expect far too much from them. 

And so, we need to come out with science to say, "Hey, they really need to play."

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: I think if you had said that to grandma 150 years ago, they'd look at you like you were crazy. It's like trying to give them a cookbook, you know, a hundred years ago on how to cook a root vegetable. 

They're like, 'What? Are you kidding? Are you kidding me? That's all we have in the winter, is a root vegetable – you need a cookbook to know how to cook a root vegetable?' Now, today it's like, 'Ooh, parsnip, what do I do with this?'

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Exactly.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Because we can buy potatoes the year round – so, we've lost cultural knowledge this way around young children. And that's always the danger in writing and putting developmental science on paper. 

As soon as you talk about attachment, then it goes to the head; and we think there's certain expectations and checklists and all the rest of it. As soon as we see the five to seven shift, then we get worried about it. 

We all have to remember that maturity is not like a lock and key. Like, I can wake up very mature in the morning and very tempered, but by five or six, seven o'clock or whatever – you know, I can lose my mind and my mix; particularly, challenging day or COVID. 

And I'm like, 'Why am I-- You know, I just need to have my own temper tantrum.' Okay, don't do it on the children, but why am I coming undone? So, this capacity to mix our feelings and to be tempered and to have self-control, it's an illusion at best. 

I mean, you know, we do our best, but we still, when we get frustrated, we are going to be tested; you know, 10:30 at night, your child's not going to bed – they want another glass of water. You've had a long day. 

Just because you've got a brain that can mix feelings, doesn't mean it's going to mix at 10:30 at night. So, we must always keep in mind that this, what we're talking about here is the capacity to have impulse control, but not that you're always going to be capable of it.

 

How to move to that space of Rest, Play, Grow as adults

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Of it all the time. Yeah. I'm curious what your opinion is on this. So, if there has been like, you know, say, you are a parent and you feel like maybe you haven't gone through these stages, like maybe you didn't have that time to rest and to play and to grow as you were aging. 

And you feel a little bit stuck or, you know, you're, I guess seeing yourself in these, kind of, developmental things and feeling stuck in them, what do you actually do? Like how as an adult, do you feel like we could move to that space of rest and play and grow?

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: So, there's two things here. There is two-- Well, I should say there's two paths to maturity, if you want to put it concretely; and we're probably a mix of both. 

But the first one is where we are basically-- We have strong relationships, good conditions; we get to play, and we develop a sense of self that's quite robust. We have sense of security in our world, our brain can grow and develop. 

So, we're all, probably not, we're all-- Some people are in varying different degrees on that, but nature had a backup plan. She had a backup plan because human beings are imperfect and bad things happen, and children don't always have conditions. Excuse me. 

So, what is the pathway to maturity there? Well, hopefully, you had some things that anchored you; some consistency, predictability. You may transfer attachments to pets, to your peers, to inanimate objects. 

There could be lots of stuff; to groups, cults, whatever it is. Some of these will serve you better than others, obviously. I've worked with people whose attachments were pets, and it's incredible how a pet can provide a place for your caring to go and preserve you. 

But the reality is, is that some of us also have to grieve. I think a lot of us have to grieve what we did not get or we needed to get; a parent who couldn't give you the invitation that you deserve, that every child deserves where they fell short. 

Maybe you had a parent who had, their own parent didn't you allow them to have certain feelings; and so, when you as a child had those feelings, they couldn't handle it. And so, on and on and on, they pass it. 

But, you know, we can't say because, you know, my parents struggled that emotion, therefore I'm going to struggle; and it's a fade or complete, and that's a cop-out. 

So, our job is to say, "Okay, well, that's a grief for us that our parents couldn't invite it. But where is our potential? Where do we get our rest? Where do we get our play? Where do we get our growth?" 

And as soon as you move out of childhood and you're into adulthood, teenage years is not actually a developmental stage – so it's either childhood or adulthood. 

When you're in an adulthood, what comes after that if you are brave enough? It’s parenthood. And parenthood is not the same as adulthood. In parenthood, your rest comes from fulfilling your potential as a parent, 'Ah, I got them to their tears. Look at that play, it's just beautiful. Listen to that.' 

Or 'My kids are happy.' Or, you know, 'That was a tricky situation, I didn't lose my mind on them and I got them through it and I got the tears.' And you feel that confidence, you feel good about the job that you've done. 

You may feel tired, but you feel effective. You feel proud. You feel confident, 'Look what I did with these imperfect hands.' That's where your rest comes from because you're fulfilling your potential. 

Where does your play come from? It can come from many things, but you don't have to go to the spa to get rest. I mean, that'll be-- That's not true just the kind of rest that I'm talking about. It's about giving yourself over to the act and the role of, not the act, but giving yourself over vulnerably to the responsibility that comes with raising a child. 

Where does the play come? Well, you know, you've got children around you, they can draw you into play – give yourself over to that. You know, entry into their worlds. Slow down, and take the world in through with them. 

You know, the games, the things that they pull you into; that's where my play oftentimes, comes is, you know, alongside of them. It hasn't been elsewhere. It's been part of, 'Okay, well, we're going to ride bikes together, or we're going to do crafts together, or we're going to watch, even sometimes it's not true play, but watch a movie together, or cook together or eat together.' Right? 

That can be our play. And so, where is our growth? Our growth is because we continue to try to show up. We have to adapt. 'That didn't work; I had a bad day, I lost it 10:30. How do I show up differently?' 

And so, that's where we just-- Our love is what makes us grow. Our love for a child, our wanting to be the parent they need; that's how we grow. So, in parenting, our rest, play, and grow is in our parenting role, right?

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. I love that. I love what you're talking about playing with them too, like giving ourselves over to that play. Because I think that oftentimes, we're just like, 'Well, we're the adults, so we have to always be in control, and have to do this and this and this and this.' 

And so, I even find myself doing that. Like, you know, "playing with them” while I just kind of sit there beside them and they play, and not really like interacting or engaging, but I love that idea of just like, really getting into their world and allowing ourselves to have that be our play and have the growth come from parenting. That sounds so magical.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Well, yeah, and I think probably a lot of people just do it very naturally. It's just bringing and shining a light on it. I mean, children will still want to play on their own, and I would never--  

You know, my kids would often say to me, "Go away, we don't want to--" because that play bubble is very-- They need a secure play bubble, and they don't want me in that. But then when it came time to wrestling or hide-and-seek or something like that, I was the go-to for wrestling, or the dance parties or whatever – that was mom. 

Or we had to do crafts – that was mom. You know, dad's, you know, oftentimes, bike-riding or whatever else it was that he would do with them. Each of us had different areas that we would play with, but not in all areas. 

So, it's just, I don't know, if you can't be lulled into play by a young child, I don't know, you know, then just try to listen to them and create the space for them to play. But it should be pretty contagious. It's still--

 

Oppositional children

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I do think it is, it is contagious if you let it be. So, I would love to ask you also about the more strong-willed children. So, some people call them strong-willed or aggressive or difficult or whatever. 

So, maybe you have a child-- Maybe you're listening to this and you have a child who's 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, whatever – who you find is very strong-willed, is maybe oppositional or not as easy to play with, not as easy to connect with. What are some tips that you would give in that situation?

 

Why the development of will is important in childhood

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Well, I wouldn't give any tips until you can make sense of it. And this is the key thing here, because this issue of will, like sit back and think for a moment. Is there any of us as parents who doesn't want our child to have a will? The answer would be, no. We all want our children to have a will. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: We want them to have their own agenda, their own preferences – their own wants, wishes, desires – their own way to form – their own intentions and take responsibility and set goals. Like that's what good development looks like. They have to develop a will. 

No baby comes out of the womb and says, "This is what I want." They're helpless. They need to just take what they can get. There's, at some point, you’re just simply fed; and at some point, you become an eater. 

The development of will is a very important developmental milestone and developmental progression. So, children are meant to be willful. But back in the day, and yeah, I won't pigeonhole any kind of parenting approaches, but there are some particular parenting approaches that lend themselves to being very--  

'The child must be controlled, you must break the child's will, you must bend the child's will to yourself.' I've had parents say, "I thought it was my job to break my child's will." I'm like, "What? You’re going to have a doormat?"

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. Don't you want them to have opinions and thoughts and feelings of their own?

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Yes. "Don't interfere with mine," that's really what the parent is saying. And the problem with that is that there's no invitation in that for the child to be their own person. 

A child needs an invitation to be their own person, and that means that they may have an agenda that looks different from you. You know, my kids may choose, you know, occupations that I may or may not think will be good for them; that's not my job. 

My job is to deliver them into adulthood so they can figure out who they are, and what they're going to do with their big beautiful life. So, this idea of will as if it's something bad, doesn't understand the purpose of will. Now, it is also because it's so important for development, it is actually tied into instincts and emotions. 

 

What is Counter-will?

We have an instinct called for better, for worse, whatever you want to call it – Counter-will, that's what it's been called, Counter-will, where there is this instinct to preserve the self, to have one's own mind. 

There is a bias to become a separate self. And it leads to emotions like resistance, opposition, defiance, actions and behavior this way, and the emotion of resistance that spurs it all along. 

It is also there to protect our relationships so that if someone came up to a child and was a stranger and said, "Hey, don't do that," this will to say, "I'll be my own person, I'll follow orders from my own people," that child should, I hope, be spunky enough to say, "You're not the boss of me, I'm not listening." Right? 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: That's what happens when the substitute teacher comes in, 'You're not our teacher, we're not listening to you.' The adults don't like that so much. 

So, this idea of a problematic will, that's actually not the question I would ask. I want to see the child have a strong will; that's not a mistake in development. What I'm more interested in is if that parent can lead the child who has that sense of self developing and not break the child, but lead them and find a way to get what needs to be done, done. 

Like, how do you use your relationship? How do you use your influence naturally not to crush the child's will, but to get the child on side; that's what relationship does, it gets you on side. 

You could have two bosses in a workplace; one who builds a relationship, and one who uses force and coercion. I can tell you right now who's going to be more successful because they're working on side relationship; they're not trying to change who you are, but they're working with who you are. 

Relationship is the context for raising our children, there's nothing wrong with them wanting particular things. Now, if we can't give it to them or we disagree with it, 'No, you're not having candy for breakfast,' then we can acknowledge, 'You love candy. This is what you want, I get it; who doesn't?' 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Mm-hmm. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Yeah. 'You wish you had a mother who said she could.' 'I can have it now.' 'No, you can't. It's a no, but I don't blame you for liking it.' Right? We can hold a, No, we can say, "That's not the way the world is, sweetie. I wish it was." You know? "I wish that there weren't rules this way," you know? 

Yeah. "I know you don't want to wear a mask at school, I get it; it's uncomfortable, it's itchy." I don't have to talk them into liking a mask, they can have their own mind about that. 

I don't even have to agree with them. But the reality is, is that sometimes they may have to realize that, you know, just because they've got an idea, it doesn't mean it always comes to fruition; and that's where tears are involved and relationship is involved, but we don't have to try to break that child. 

Now, all that being said, that's what the healthy will question looks like. Like, there is-- I'm sorry my dogs are barking here. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: No, that's okay. It's okay. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: There is the other side of that. And so, I would say most of my students, out of all the instincts that are the most problematic to understand or the most challenging to understand – Counter-will, resistance, opposition, defiance is the most baffling that I have found in my practice in the last, you know, 20 years or so. 

It is very confusing because sometimes it is a sign of distress, and it isn't a sign of good health development. And I don't see this teased apart very well when I look at stuff that comes out about this. 

Because sometimes it's a sign that if it's chronic, if it's pervasive, if the child is always, you can anticipate, I say, yes - They're going to say, "No, I won't do it." If I say, No, they're going to say, yes. 

It's like opposite. They're always off. They're always chronically defiant, not following – then I'd say, we don't have a problem with strong will, we have a relationship problem. 

This child doesn't want to follow this adult. What has happened here? It might be nothing to do with the adult, but why is this child not wanting to follow this adult? I would drop my child off at my sister's house for some caretaking with her aunt. 

And my very sensitive child at the age of three would have nothing of it. She hadn't-- She wanted her mother. She thought, 'No, this is not going to work.' She wouldn't follow, she wouldn't listen. You know, opposition defiant. 

My sister said to me, "Yeah, I had to even go and check and see if my name was still on the mortgage, because I wasn't sure I was still the owner of the place. She was just trying to take over." 

That was out of insecurity, being left at three with an aunt she wasn't, I thought she was comfortable with; she didn't know her enough, and she had been brought into a relationship that was situational and temporary. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. 

 

Counter-will and its purpose in development

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: But if that was chronic and pervasive, then I would say this is a relational problem that something's gotten stuck – maybe it's an alpha problem, maybe the child is taking the lead, maybe the child isn't resting in the care of their adults. It could be lots of stuff. 

Counter-will masquerades for many things. But if it gets stuck, it's usually a sign that something's not working. We need to work at the relationship, and we need to get that child resting in the care of their adult. 

And that's where you need more support clinically to really just say, 'What is happening here? How do we make sense of this?' But the most important thing is not to have a knee-jerk reaction, 'This child's bad, this child isn't following, this parent doesn't have a hard enough hand, that parent isn't teaching a lesson.' 

Parents will fight with each other, 'You're not doing it.' When kids get stuck, parents point fingers at each other. Everybody comes out of the woodwork to start telling you what to do, no one's made sense of it; people don't understand where this comes from. 

You have medical and mental health professionals still diagnosing Oppositional Defiant Disorder as if it's actually something, like as if it was a real thing. No. Every child with Oppositional Defiant Disorder isn't attached to the people who are giving the orders; this is a problem with the relationship, not with a child. 

We need to treat the relationship. There's no blood test for Oppositional Defiant Disorder, there's no brain scan for this; it's not a real thing. It's a relationship problem that leads to the manifestation of incredible resistance, defiance, opposition. 

That child can be alarmed. That child can be not in relationship. All the time you're counting behaviors, you've lost the plot. The relationship needs to be taken care of. This is a child who doesn't feel safe. They're not resting in anyone's care. 

It's an act of desperation. They're trying to take care of themselves. Every child I ever worked with, every teen I ever worked with that was a youth in care, who basically their guardian was the government, because they had no legal guardian other than the government; they'd been abandoned. 

I never, ever thought for any doubt in my mind that I was somehow going to bring them to rest in my care, in my role as a counselor for the short-term counseling that I had. It was always about, 'Okay, well, here's some ideas, what do you think?' 

They were-- They were in charge. They were on their own. They didn't have a guardian; and they were hard, they were hard end. And you had to dance with this, and respect that they needed to be there because that's how they survived. 

You don't crash into it. We need to understand that this is an instinct and emotions for good reason, but just, if you're in that situation, if it's chronic and pervasive, if it doesn't come up and down, it's not a three-year-old who says, "You're not the boss of me," and then, you know, an hour later is cuddling with you, "Oh mommy, I love you."

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Like, "I want to follow you forever." If that's not the case, and it's chronic and pervasive, then I would say work with somebody who understands Counter-will, probably through the Neufeld Institute, and get a sense of what this is. 

You know, there's a chapter on Alpha Problems, Chapter 5, and Rest, Play Grow is on Alpha Problems. Chapter 9 is all about Counter-will. Do some reading, try to make sense of your child, try to figure this out. But this is--   

This issue of strong-will, I can tell you is a mess. When I look at the literature, people do not understand this. Gordon Neufeld gets it. He's really put it on the map. But I don't--   

I think people start trying to interpret this, and have to be much more careful and have much better eyes about this instinct and emotion. It's a much more complicated area than I think people understand.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. That is so fascinating because, yeah, I don't think that it is talked about in that way. Like, it's just-- That's not part of the conversation, and it's at all--   

It's like, 'Okay, you have this diagnosis, here's some medication – good luck.' You know? That's kind of-- That's, kind of, all that's given. So, I love this idea of it being a relationship problem. 

So, if people that are listening find themselves in that situation, your suggestion would be to get more of that clinical support, preferably through somebody through the Neufeld Institute.

 

How to get support in Counter-will

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Well, nobody's trained in Counter-will, unless you're through the Neufeld Institute or you've taken courses, or you understand this. If you've got a counselor who's done some courses and stuff like that through the Neufeld Institute, they may have a better idea of it than others. 

So, I would refer to-- The resources would be obviously Rest, Play, Grow – there's a couple chapters there. There is a course on Counter-will through the Neufeld Institute, neufeldinstitute.org. It's a four-hour course called Making Sense of Counterwill. 

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. 

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: I know another and she's not affiliated with the Neufeld Institute, but I really like her and I think she's written a really good book. And she does tackle, she's probably only person I really trust who's tackled Oppositional Defiant Disorder, kind of, thing – is Mona, Mona Delahooke. 

Dr. Mona Delahooke in California, and she wrote a book called Beyond Behaviors. I haven't read all of it, but I love the stuff that I see that's been posted by her and really respect her professionally. So, she would be another good resource that way as well. But yeah, if you're going to work with someone clinically, I would say narrow the field.

 

How to connect with Dr. Deborah MacNamara

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. I love that. So, speaking of how to work with somebody like that, we would love to hear how we can connect with you – work with you, all of those things – if you want to share that with the listeners.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Sure. So, I have a couple of prongs to my practice. So, I have a counseling practice for Canadian residents only because of licensing through the Registered Clinical Counselors. So, clinical practice only for Canadian residents online. 

I also give a lot of presentations and webinars. And because of covid, I've moved online, and I'm going to be focusing on that in the fall and in the new year. So, I'll be rolling out more material that way. 

And so, on my new material on sleep and my new food book, which will be out within a year, I hope – a year and a bit – on food and attachment, and how they go together. 

So, my website, so presentations would be probably the easiest to access the book, obviously; and counseling sessions for more clinical areas that need some more focus. 

But really the focus is trying to get parents to, you know, read; read the book, sit with stuff, listen to a presentation. You know more than you think you do if, and you think, 'Ugh, I'm never going to figure this out.' 

You know, I felt hopeless with my own children and I know the science; the science doesn't save you from that. Parenting will create tons of these emotions. So, I encourage parents to, you know, explore stuff and to use resources that are sound. 

And in developmental science, like the Neufeld Institute, a lot of my colleagues you know, Look with Love, Bridgett Miller – she's got wonderful material. You know, I think Mona Delahooke has wonderful material. I've got lots of Neufeld Institute people, Hannah Beach and Tamara Strijack put out a book on Reclaiming Our Students, which is based for teachers and stuff. 

There's lots of wonderful material, but sink yourself into it. Try to make sense of your child through this lens. Lots of articles, infographics on my website as well. So just-- You know? Sink your teeth into it, and show up to something that makes sense for you to show up or just make sure it fits with you. And if it doesn't, then just keep looking for something that does.

 

Crystal The Parenting Coach: I'm excited to listen to the ones you're doing on sleep and food; that sounds really fascinating. And yeah, I love all of this. I love what you said about, 'You know more than you think you do'. 

I think that's just like the perfect little piece to end on because I think it really is, it's that combination of science and intuition. You can-- You do some research and you can do some reading, but it's really settling into that intuition and knowing that really you do know more than you think you know, and just trusting yourself as a parent and living into that. 

So, thank you so much. Thank you for being here and imparting all of your knowledge for us today.

 

Dr. Deborah MacNamara: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure. And thanks for your great questions. I've enjoyed my time with you.

Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay, thank you. Bye. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Make sure that you give it Five Stars on Apple, and check out my monthly membership for moms in the show notes.