S10|01 - Secure Relating with Ann Kelley

 Ann Kelley (she/her) is a licensed psychologist specializing in couples therapy and relational work. She runs a clinical practice in Austin, Texas, and is a podcaster, writer, educator, and speaker. Dr. Kelley spent years supervising specialized trauma-informed therapy programs and was an expert in courts and media outlets. She co-authored "Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World" (HarperCollins, 2024), with her partner, Sue Marriott. 

In this episode: 

• Co-regulation and co-dysregulation in our relationships (not just parent-child)
• How our childhood and history affect us (and what we can do about it) 
• You’re not “stuck” in your attachment, how developing and growing happens (our brains and nervous systems are plastic)
• Connecting back to our heart and our feelings
• Our nervous system is a result of our childhood and can change over the lifespan 
• De-pathologizing our reactions and bringing presence into the tough moments. 

Connect with her on IG: https://www.instagram.com/therapist_uncensored_podcast/
Website: https://therapistuncensored.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/austinshrinks/
Podcast: https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes-2/

- Get started on this work through a daily mindset practice from Coach Crystal- Journal HERE

- Work with Crystal 1:1: www.coachcrystal.ca/miracle or in group: www.coachcrystal.ca/creationroom
 

- Grab your copy of Crystal’s Feelings Wheel here: www.coachcrystal.ca/wheel 

 

Episode Summary

This episode of The Parenting Coach Podcast features Crystal in conversation with psychologist and author Ann Kelley. They discuss topics like secure attachment, the impact of childhood experiences on parenting, emotional regulation, and navigating relational dynamics. The conversation emphasizes the importance of connection, understanding personal triggers, and co-regulation in relationships.

Key Topics Discussed

• Crystal’s personal journey toward becoming a better parent through inward reflection.
• Introduction to Ann Kelley and her work on attachment theory and secure relating.
• The importance of examining childhood experiences in shaping adult relational patterns.
• Co-regulation and its role in emotional connection between individuals.
• The concept of "red" (activated) and "blue" (withdrawn) attachment strategies.
• Neuroplasticity and the capacity for nervous system growth throughout life.
• Practical steps for fostering emotional connection and secure attachment.
• Ann’s book and upcoming program for exploring these themes further.

Full Transcript

 

This transcript has been created to provide a text-based version of the podcast episode for accessibility and convenience. While effort has been made to ensure its accuracy, it may contain errors or omissions. Please note that the exact words and intended meaning of the speaker(s) are best understood by listening to the original audio recording.

To experience the full conversation in its authentic form, please listen to the episode directly on your preferred podcast platform.

 

Introduction

Crystal:

Welcome to the Parenting Coach Podcast! Over seven years ago, I felt like I was stuck in a cycle of yelling and reactivity in my parenting that I didn’t want to be in, but I didn’t know how to get out. I knew how I wanted to parent—I’d spent hours reading books—but I couldn’t find a way to show up the way I wanted. That’s when I started to turn inward. My own journey was exactly what my family needed. As I changed, everything around me changed. My kids’ fighting decreased by 90% or more, without medications or therapy. I stopped yelling, sibling fights became almost non-existent, and I found that this change flowed into other areas of my life too. My intuition grew stronger, and I started running my life and business differently.

 

If this sounds like something you want, I can help. Join me each week as I share my journey, including laughter, fun, hard times, and tears, along with support, guidance, and fun conversations with my favorite experts.

 

Hello! Welcome to the Parenting Coach Podcast. Before we get started today, I’m going to tell you a little story.

 

I love taking my kids to libraries. As a homeschool mom, libraries are like my favorite thing. They’re also what I miss most when I’m traveling. Recently, I was in the library, and I love going to the “top reads” section. It’s where you find the books you should read. Immediately, this book called Secure Relating caught my attention. I just knew I had to read it.

 

There were so many parts where I had to reread sections, write things down, or discuss them with my husband. It feels like such a surreal moment that I get to read a book, and now I have the opportunity to talk with the incredible author about it today.

 

So, this is going to be a treat for me and for all of you as well. Welcome, Ann Kelley! Why don’t you introduce yourself a little and tell us about your work?

 

Ann Kelley’s Background and Work

Ann Kelley:

Well, thank you for having me on. I’m really excited to be here. I dove into your podcast and was blown away—it’s full of amazing resources! I’ll definitely be referring people to it.

 

I’ve been a psychologist for…oh my goodness, I don’t even want to count how many years now. My primary focus has been as a couples therapist. In working with people, you start to see predictable patterns that create discomfort—within themselves, in their relationships, and with their children. I’ve always been drawn to attachment theory and have been a huge fan of interpersonal neurobiology.

 

I think you had Dan Siegel on your podcast, right? His work has been such an influence for me. I’ve also been podcasting for eight years now, which feels surreal—back when I started, we had to explain to people what a podcast even was!

 

Crystal:

(laughs) Yes, it’s come such a long way.

 

Ann Kelley:

It really has! One of the best parts of podcasting is getting to interview authors and thinkers I admire. After years of doing that, my partner and I decided to write the book we always wished we had. There are so many great books out there, but we wanted to focus specifically on attachment—how it impacts our ability to connect with others, parent effectively, and stay present in challenging moments.

 

A lot of the dialogues about attachment are insightful but tend to be overly categorical. People like putting themselves in boxes—“I’m preoccupied attachment” or “I’m dismissive attachment”—but the reality is far more nuanced. We’re not static beings. How we relate to others changes depending on the situation, what’s activating our systems, and whether we feel safe or threatened. The more we understand this, the more we can stay present and connected with others.

 

Childhood Experiences and Emotional Triggers

Crystal:

I absolutely love the term “co-dysregulation.” I’m not sure if you coined it, but when I read it, I thought, That is the perfect word. Sometimes, I’ll be working with couples, and it’s like the whole session is just them bouncing dysregulation back and forth. When I read that term, I thought, Yes, that’s exactly what happens.

 

My first question for you is more of an observation I’ve noticed about people. It seems like many believe their childhood doesn’t really affect them. They’ll say, “Everything’s fine. I’m fine. It’s not connected to anything in my past.” I loved the real-life stories in your book where you’d rewind and show how people’s childhoods impacted their present-day challenges. It’s so easy to dismiss this—even with the best intentions. People say, “My parents did their best, and they loved me,” which can be true, but it can also dismiss wounds that we might still need to address.

 

Ann Kelley:

Absolutely. I think you’re hitting on such an important point. There are a couple of reasons people avoid looking at their childhood. For one, they might feel guilty because their parents loved them and did their best. It feels disloyal to go back and examine those wounds. Or there’s this cultural idea of, “Don’t blame your parents—focus on the present.”

 

But the reality is, our past shapes how our nervous systems develop. It’s not about blaming anyone. It’s about understanding the patterns we learned to keep ourselves safe. And these patterns are often generational—our parents’ nervous systems were shaped by their parents, and so on.

 

When we take the time to reflect on our past, we can finally say, “Oh, this is why I feel discombobulated when I don’t get a text back” or “This is why I shut everything off at work and expect my family to just understand.” These realizations can be so liberating. You gain compassion for yourself, your parents, your partner, and everyone around you. It’s not about blaming or excusing behavior—it’s about taking a courageous journey to understand yourself and break the cycle.

 

Crystal:

That resonates so much. I’ve noticed that when I slow down and dig into what’s really bothering me, it’s always something deeper. For example, if I’m frustrated because my husband forgot to put dinner on, it’s rarely about that—it’s tied to something more meaningful. It’s like inner child work, where I pause and listen to the message beneath the frustration.

 

Ann Kelley:

Exactly. And if we ignore those deeper messages, they don’t go away—they get louder. The truth is, our history impacts us whether we acknowledge it or not. It’s always there, influencing how we interact with our children, our spouse, and everyone else. You can either look at it consciously and gain insight, or let it unconsciously shape your behavior.

 

When we take the time to reflect, it’s empowering. It’s not about pitying yourself for what you went through. It’s about understanding how those experiences shaped your perception and using that knowledge to respond differently in the present.

 

Co-Regulation and Relational Patterns

Crystal:

It’s fascinating how much our past influences our present. I often tell myself, “Just keep going,” but when I do pause to reflect, it always opens up something deeper.

 

Ann Kelley:

Absolutely. If we don’t take the time to reflect, those unresolved issues will still affect us. Our nervous system will react to situations without our conscious awareness. That’s why understanding these patterns can make such a profound difference.

 

One of the things we emphasize in the book is that this isn’t about blaming anyone or excusing ourselves—it’s about recognizing the journey as a courageous call to action. When we don’t understand what’s activating us, we end up acting it out with our kids or partners. For example, if your child is scared about a school play, you might think you’re just helping them prepare. But if your own history of fear or social rejection is fueling your anxiety, it’s going to come out in how you interact with them.

 

Crystal:

I’ve noticed that when I’m overwhelmed, I start putting pressure on myself. Last year, I was deciding whether to homeschool my kids again, and I felt this intense pressure that they needed to go to school or get a tutor. When I paused to reflect, I realized it wasn’t about my kids—it was about me feeling like I couldn’t do it all. Once I understood that, I felt better about my decision.

 

Ann Kelley:

That’s such a great example. When you took a moment to go inward, you were able to ground yourself and make a decision from a place of clarity rather than pressure. Even though the decision didn’t change, the way you approached it did—and that makes all the difference.

 

When we don’t slow down, our anxiety stays in our body, whether we’re aware of it or not. It’s either going to come out in our interactions or get suppressed, which isn’t helpful in the long run. But when we ground ourselves, we’re not just regulating our own system—we’re modeling that regulation for those around us.

 

Crystal:

I saw that happen with my kids. Once I paused and released the pressure I was feeling, I was able to ask them what they wanted to do. They ended up choosing what I had initially wanted, but this time, it felt like their decision, and they were empowered by it. That’s such a powerful lesson—to step back and allow connection instead of forcing control.

 

Ann Kelley:

Exactly. When we approach relationships from a place of connection, we create space for others to grow. And that’s the essence of co-regulation. We don’t have to figure everything out on our own. We’re meant to attune to one another and help regulate each other’s systems.

 

Crystal:

I love the way you describe co-regulation in your book. It’s such a helpful framework for understanding how we relate to others and why we react the way we do.

 

Ann Kelley:

Co-regulation is such a foundational concept. It’s what allows us to connect deeply with others, but it’s also where dysregulation can happen if we’re not mindful. The more we understand our own system and how it interacts with others, the more we can foster secure relationships.

 

"Red" and "Blue" Attachment Strategies

Crystal:

In your book, you talk about the "red" and "blue" attachment strategies, which I found so insightful. It made me think about how these dynamics play out in my relationships. Can you explain a bit more about what these terms mean?

 

Ann Kelley:

Of course! We introduced the terms "red" and "blue" as a way to describe attachment tendencies without the stigma or shame often associated with traditional labels like "preoccupied" or "dismissing." The goal was to use visual and accessible language.

 

"Red" represents a more activated state in relationships. When someone is feeling anxious or threatened, they might become more emotionally expressive or push harder for connection. It’s very relationally focused, but it can come across as pressure or anxiety to the other person.

 

"Blue," on the other hand, represents a deactivated state. When someone feels overwhelmed or threatened, their system might respond by cooling off, withdrawing, or even shutting down emotionally. It’s a protective strategy, but it can feel distant or cold to others.

 

Crystal:

That makes so much sense! My husband definitely runs “blue,” and I tend to be more on the “red” side.

 

Ann Kelley:

That’s such a common pairing! It’s important to recognize that neither strategy is wrong—they’re both adaptive responses to stress. The key is learning to move slightly toward the middle. If someone runs red, they can practice calming themselves down to reduce the intensity. If someone runs blue, they can work on warming up and staying engaged, even when it feels uncomfortable.

 

One of the challenges is that these dynamics often feed into each other. For example, if a red partner becomes more anxious, the blue partner might withdraw further, which only increases the red partner’s anxiety. We call this a "push-pull" dynamic, and it’s something many couples experience.

 

Crystal:

That’s exactly what happens with us. When I get activated, I feel like my husband distances himself, and it feels rejecting.

 

Ann Kelley:

And from his perspective, he’s likely withdrawing as a way to manage his own overwhelm—it’s not about rejecting you. But that’s what makes these dynamics so tricky. If both partners can step back and recognize what’s happening, it can shift the whole interaction.

 

For someone running red, the question is, "How can I cool myself down enough to stay present without overwhelming my partner?" For someone running blue, it’s about asking, "How can I stay engaged and show warmth, even when I feel like pulling away?" Even small shifts in either direction can create more connection.

 

Crystal:

That’s such a helpful way to look at it. It’s not about changing who you are but about finding small ways to connect better.

 

Ann Kelley:

Exactly. It’s about understanding your own nervous system and making intentional choices to foster connection. When we recognize these patterns in ourselves and our partners, it becomes much easier to respond with compassion instead of reactivity.

 

Practical Exercises for Connection

Crystal:

I love the idea of making intentional choices to foster connection. Can you share some practical exercises for people who are struggling with these patterns?

 

Ann Kelley:

Absolutely. One of the first things I encourage is to pause and reflect before entering an interaction. For example, if you run blue and tend to withdraw, take a moment before walking into the house. Get connected to yourself and visualize how you want to show up. If you’re feeling emotionally distant, try imagining what it would feel like if your loved ones weren’t there anymore. This exercise can activate the attachment system and help you engage more intentionally.

 

For red, it’s about pausing to calm your system before reacting. Ask yourself, "What am I feeling, and what do I need?" Often, that self-awareness can help reduce the urgency and make space for a more thoughtful response.

 

Crystal:

That’s such a powerful exercise. I’ve done something similar with my kids, and it’s amazing how much it shifts the energy when I pause and ground myself.

 

Ann Kelley:

Exactly. Another strategy is to actively express delight when you see someone. This is especially important for those who run blue, as they may not naturally show warmth even if they feel it. I had a client who practiced this with her adolescent daughter. She took a moment to connect with herself before entering the house and then greeted her daughter with a smile and an expression of delight. The change in their dynamic was immediate and profound.

 

Crystal:

That’s such a simple but beautiful way to foster connection. I can see how that would make such a big difference.

 

Ann Kelley:

It really does. Another helpful tool is setting up small rituals of connection. This could be as simple as a morning check-in or a nightly conversation. These moments build a sense of safety and closeness over time.

 

For people who tend to shut down emotionally, engaging in activities that evoke feelings—like listening to music or journaling—can also help reconnect them to their inner world. One client created a playlist of emotionally evocative songs, which helped her tap into feelings she had been suppressing.

 

Crystal:

I love that idea. My oldest son, who’s in college, recently told me he’s been feeling stuck and disconnected. He decided to spend time reconnecting with his emotions, and music was one of the tools he used. It’s amazing how intuitive kids can be about what they need.

 

Ann Kelley:

That’s such a great example. Music, art, and other creative outlets are incredible tools for reconnecting with yourself and others. When we approach these exercises with curiosity and openness, they can help us access parts of ourselves that we’ve shut off or overlooked.

 

Crystal:

It’s such a reminder that connection starts with ourselves. When we’re able to regulate and attune to our own needs, it naturally flows into our relationships.

 

Ann Kelley:

Exactly. And the more we practice these small moments of connection, the more our nervous systems adapt and grow. It’s not about perfection—it’s about progress and intentionality.

 

Conclusion and Call to Action

Crystal:

Thank you so much for sharing all of these insights, Ann. I feel like your book and your approach really help us move beyond just fixing behaviors to truly understanding ourselves and our relationships.

 

Ann Kelley:

Thank you! That’s exactly the goal. It’s not about blaming or pathologizing—it’s about creating a common language for understanding what’s happening within us and between us.

 

Crystal:

For listeners who want to dive deeper into your work, what’s the best way for them to get started?

 

Ann Kelley:

You can find the book, Secure Relating, pretty much everywhere—on Amazon, Audible, and other major retailers. If you want to explore the concepts further, my partner Sue and I are offering an online program starting early next year. We’ll break down the core ideas from the book into digestible and actionable steps. It’s designed for everyone, not just therapists, although we’ll also provide CE credits for those in the field.

 

You can find more information about the program on our website at therapistuncensored.com. Just head to the "Courses and Events" section for details.

 

Crystal:

That sounds amazing! And for those who don’t have time to dive into the full book right away, I noticed you’ve included some great graphics and summaries. Even just skimming those can provide a lot of valuable insights.

 

Ann Kelley:

Absolutely! We wanted the book to be accessible, whether you’re reading it cover to cover or just dipping into sections as you have time.

 

Crystal:

Where else can listeners connect with you?

 

Ann Kelley:

Our podcast, Therapist Uncensored, is a great place to start. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram. I’ll make sure to share the links with you for the show notes. And if anyone wants to reach out directly, they can email me at [email protected].

 

Crystal:

Perfect! I’ll include all of those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today, Ann. This was such a meaningful conversation.

 

Ann Kelley:

Thank you for having me! It was a pleasure to be here.

 

Crystal:

If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, I’d love for you to help spread the word. Share this episode with a friend, tag me on Instagram, or leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Let me know which parts resonated with you, and I’ll see you next week!