S10|07 - The Way of Play with Georgie Wisen-Vincent

 
Why is play so crucial, and what do our kids miss out when play is not prioritized? Is it important for us, as adults too? Georgie Wisen-Vincent, LMFT, RPT-S, ECMHS is a nationally recognized play therapy expert and co-author (with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson) of the new book -- THE WAY OF PLAY, and she joins me today to tackle these questions and more. 

In this episode: 

• How to engage your kids in play, in a way that promotes connection and flow 
• What kids learn from play, and how we can use play to teach them important life skills like empathy, boundaries, and managing conflict 
• How play can be important for adults (and a healthy little rant from me about inner child healing) 
• What skills and development kids miss when play isn’t available to them 

Links to connect with Georgie: 
http://playstronginstitute.com/
https://playstronginstitute.com/the-way-of-play
IG HERE

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Links to Crystals work, to help on your inner journey: 

Intuitive Journaling Prompts HERE and a somatic meditation (Move through frustration in 15 minutes or less) HERE, The Art of Non-Attachment Workshop HERE

Get started on this work with daily practice in a journal, Burn This Book (a great intro to mental and emotional wellness) HERE

Work with Crystal 1:1: www.coachcrystal.ca/miracle or in group: www.coachcrystal.ca/creationroom

Grab your copy of Crystal’s Feelings Wheel here: 

www.coachcrystal.ca/wheel

 

Full Transcript

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To experience the full conversation in its authentic form, please listen to the episode directly on your preferred podcast platform.

Introduction: The Parenting Coach Podcast

Crystal: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Parenting Coach Podcast with Crystal. Over seven years ago, I felt like I was stuck in this cycle of yelling and reactivity in my parenting that I did not want to be in, but I didn't know how to get out of. I knew how I wanted to parent pretty much exactly, and I'd spent hours reading books, but not finding a way to show up how I wanted to.

That's when I started to turn inwards. My own inward journey was what my family needed. As I changed, everything around me changed. My kids' meltdowns decreased by 90 percent or more with no medications or therapy. I stopped yelling, sibling fighting became almost entirely non-existent, and I found that this change flowed into other areas of my life too.

My intuition increased. I started to run my life and business in a very different way. If this sounds like something you want too, I can help. Join me each week as I share my journey, including the laughter, fun, hard times, and tears. Tune in for support, guidance, and fun conversations with my favorite experts and really anything else that interests me too.

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Parenting Coach [00:01:00] Podcast. Like I mentioned previously, this is our last season. If you missed that announcement, you are hearing it now, but I am excited to have a few more guests and a few more episodes to share with you. And we'll be keeping these up so that you can come back and refer to them whenever you want to.

Meet Georgie Wisen-Vincent

I'm excited about this interview. It has been a long time coming in the works. it's a book and an author that I am really excited to share with you and I'll let her introduce herself. Georgie, is it Georgie Wisen Vincent? It's Wisen Vincent. Yeah. Wisen Vincent. Okay. Welcome. Thank you for being here.

Georgie: Thank you for having me, Crystal. It has been a long time coming. We've been emailing for several months now, and I'm so glad we were able to make it happen.

 

The Inspiration Behind The Way of Play

 
Crystal: Yeah, me too. So, so you just finished writing a book with Dr. Tita Payne Bryson called The Way of Play. that's what we're going to dig into today.

Play is my absolute favorite thing to talk about when it comes to especially younger kids, [00:02:00] because I think it's just the way that we can teach literally everything. but, and I think we can always play more ourselves too as adults, but I would love to first just talk about you, what you do and kind of how you got into it.

Georgie: Yeah. The book also was a long time coming. I got, you know, I got to know Tina through her work with Dan Siegel and she was in his study group for a long time. You've probably heard the story cause I know you've had Tina before. But she was inspiring to me when I had my son, when he was, you know, 10 years ago when he was a new baby.

The whole brain child was the book that I was reading even while I was pregnant with my kids. So, I definitely feel like as a parent and somebody who's been in the professional space and helping with children's mental health and family well being for a long time. Like Tina has definitely been a big inspiration in my work, but also in my parenting.[00:03:00]

Georgie’s Journey into Play Therapy

And so I got a chance to come and work with her at the Center for Connection in Pasadena. And upon meeting her, I slipped out that I really wanted to write a book with her, which is really embarrassing to think about, you know, this person is like a best selling author, and she's rubbing elbows with all these other parenting experts.

And it was probably just naivete on my part, but I was just so excited to bring play therapy to Our, you know, our collective work at the center that she was just building at the time. And now we're 10 years in. And so I've been a play therapist for a very long time. I don't want to date myself and telling you how long, but I got to go and study, and get a graduate degree in London as a play therapist.

And I was already working toward becoming a licensed family therapist, child and family therapist back here in Southern California, where I'm from. So I said, you play therapy, fast forward to working with Tina. We create this [00:04:00] whole play therapy team. And I say to Tina, you know, I really think I want to start a parenting curriculum or something.

I think that parents really want to understand how play works. And I get a lot of questions about it and parents find it really irritating and boring a lot of the time now where they don't understand what their kids are communicating through their play. And the book was kind of a culmination of. I don't know, just this, drive to want to help parents connect more and understand more some of this mysterious magic that's happening while kids are playing and that they wanted to be teaching more skills, building stronger relationships with their kids.

And so I see play is a big way that we can do that in addition to sort of furthering kids learning when they're little.

Why Play Matters in Parenting

Crystal: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like most of my kids learning, especially before the age of eight or nine came through play and learning relationally, right. How to respond to people, how to, not respond to [00:05:00] people, how to not interact, but also, actual learning where they would come up with these ideas and imaginative play and just, it would just get so beautiful and big.

And so, as a homeschool mom, which we were just chatting before this recording, and Georgie is also a homeschool mom, clay has just been such a huge part of our homeschooling journey. And that's when I really got into it and then started to realize like, Oh, there's actually a lot behaviorally that they're learning too.

And if you're interested in the whole brain child that Georgie mentioned, we had an episode on that. The last season was season nine, and it was the very end of season nine. I had Dr. Dan Siegel on and we talked about that book. So you can go back and listen to that podcast episode if you want to. So, I'd love to learn more about, what made you interested in the first place about play?

Like how, did you kind of get into play therapy or this idea of play and wanting to share it?

How Parents Can Engage in Play

Georgie: Yeah, it was all really by accident. I was, this is going back into my history a little bit, but when I was just [00:06:00] getting like all of my experience, and before I was licensed as a therapist, I was helping kids who were in and out of foster care and residential home coming from very hard places, lots of disruptions in their attachment.

And I was supposed to be like a behaviorist. I was somebody who was supposed to come in and sort of set up behavior plans and give them consequences for misbehavior and things like that. So I really didn't, I didn't really understand what I was walking into and discovered that these kids just wanted to be in relationship with somebody who would take the time, listen, you know, give them a little bit of, you know, air time to think about what's happened to them in their lives and to talk about it.

But more than that, they were expressing themselves in the way that they were. I don't know, relating without, talking, relating without doing a whole lot, you know, they would just be picking up some toys and fiddling around with them. And what I noticed was that there was something more there and [00:07:00] that's what drove me to get more education in the area of play therapy.

So I, I remember the first day of my play therapy course. this master's degree in London at the University of Roehampton, where they said, you're going to just do a giant sand tray right now. So the whole room was full of sand and we about to dig in. And I was like, this is what these kids have been doing.

They've been trying to understand and relate their experience, digging into memories, even learning how to, as you said, deal with their most difficult emotions can come through in their play. And it becomes kind of a second language, which is really kids. First language to, figure out who they are, what they feel, what, you know, the way they think about things and, you know, discover more about how the, you know, the way the world works.

It’s pretty incredible when you can actually get in there at that level and see what's going on, and also be part of it.

Crystal: Yeah. And I think one of the things that people struggle with is that being part of it, [00:08:00] especially with parents that I talked to, they're like, okay, yeah, maybe plays important.

Maybe you're right about that. But, I don't know how to play. I am not, you know, well versed in playing. I hate just sitting there and playing something that I don't want to play with my kids or whatever. so, well, I guess we, you know, kind of skipped over what it is that like you're the premise of your book is, but I, this might answer it too, but I'm curious for you, how do parents be more involved in that play?

Do they need to be involved in the play in order for it to be effective for their kids? What's our role in play?

Practical Play Strategies for Parents

Georgie: Yeah, I think, the, thing that I want to say to parents, if they're listening to this right now, and they're sort of going, yeah, it's all well and good for a play therapist who has like, in this or something, and has, you know, spent all this time and have spent hours and hours playing with kids, you know, that, that play can be helpful to, to assist kids in healing if they've gone through really difficult [00:09:00] adversity, or they carry a lot of anxiety around with them, or all the things that we're concerned about.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you need to bring your kid in for therapy, right? But if you're just a regular parent and you have kids at home that pick things up, bring things to you, or building stuff, fiddling around, making messes, all of that stuff, play kind of feels like a hassle. It's hard to, We know all the research behind play.

Most parents I talk to know, yes, I know play is good for my kids. Yes, I know I'm supposed to be playing with my kids. Yes, I know that kids learn through their play. Yes, I know my kid is going to be stronger socially and emotionally if they become a great player and all that. But they don't really know that their role is important and why.

And it also brings up the question for parents. Like, what do I do if I don't really like playing with my kid? It's the majority of parents. Actually,

Crystal: I was just going to say, it's gotta be the majority of people that I've talked to for sure.

Georgie: Yeah, absolutely. [00:10:00] And so I have these big, you know, these big thoughts and goals when I'm playing with kids as a play therapist that aren't the same for parents.

I think parents just want to get through an afternoon. We want our kids to be able to do the transition from school to coming home and for things to go smoothly in our morning routine, our evening routine. We want our kids to like eat their vegetables. You know, we have these really kind of important.

And daily goals, that are different than play therapists. And so the fun part of writing this book with Tina was translating what's important to us, in parenting and how can play help further that. And also how can parents learn to, you know, join in a little bit and enjoy it. And it doesn't have to take hours and hours or expensive toys.

It can just be a few minutes at a time. Doesn't have to be a big deal, like a whole. I don't know, hour or something.

Handling Play Resistance and Playful Parenting

Crystal: So what is the answer to that question? Like do we have to have a role? And [00:11:00] if we do and we hate playing, then what do we do?

Georgie: Well the first thing is you don't have to love pretend play, for example.

You don't have to like find it riveting to sit with your five year old while they just bang two cars together or while they're. You know, creating something with action guys, or they want to build the 1047th fort in your, you know, in their childhood life, short childhood life, you don't have to love it, but setting aside a few minutes at a time can make a day go easier.

It can instill some of the skills that can last a lifetime that we want our kids to have. And some of the strategies that we've built into the book are intended to like, really get to the heart of what's happening in your kid's play and tell you exactly what to do if you're feeling like, that's the part that flummoxes me the most.

Part of the reason we don't enjoy it is because we don't really know what we're doing. And nobody's really taught us what [00:12:00] to do in those moments. Like, should I say this? Should I? I don't know, ask a question here. Should I make up my own voice for this puppet? What if my kid tells me I'm getting it wrong, which happens to a lot of parents as well.

So the answer is we, you know, we've built in seven strategies and some really easy to follow. Steps and illustrations in the book that just are really actionable steps. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of it for parents. And it's kind of nice to know where to start and where to go next and what to do after that.

Crystal: Yeah. I imagine too, that part of what's happening as you're playing with them is that connection piece, right? Which is so crucial to parent to child relationships is that even if you do quote unquote, get it wrong. Right. Even if you're like, maybe I didn't say it right or do it right or whatever that you're still taking that time to connect.

What are some of those steps in your book that you talk about that, people could hear now and start using today?

Georgie: Yeah. My favorite parts of the book are really the first couple of chapters where [00:13:00] we get into, what do I do first? You know? and I think Tina was thinking that the first thing that you need to do when your kids play are really to get into, like, where are the emotions and what's happening emotionally.

And we need to teach about emotions and all this stuff. And that's in there to definitely being able to like, join when your kids are acting something out and building on what they're doing emotionally can help them deal with their fears, handle stress differently, be able to. Listen to another person, take in their perspective, look at things flexibly, problem solve, all of that stuff is really good.

But the first two strategies I think is really where parents should start. The first one is called thinking out loud, and it's about really putting, trying to help put words to what your kid is playing. So it's like, Your kid's building something with a couple of blocks and you see that there's a triangle block with a car on top of it or something and you come in and you just go, Oh, I think that looks like a ramp [00:14:00] or maybe the car is going to go down, you know, just starting with what do you see and how would you describe it out loud as if there's a thought bubble above your child's head and you're just saying what you think is in the thought bubble.

A lot of people would call that just sports casting. and it's really common in early childhood classrooms and stuff. If you see. Sent your kid off to preschool. They probably got a lot of that. That was intended to teach them like how to cut with scissors, how to write letters, you know what I mean, like usually there's a kind of academic learning reason why, early childhood educators will sports cast, which is very important.

But when parents do it when kids play. Something happens at the brain level that Tina taught me about, that she said, what's happening is we're really letting our kids know that we see what's going on in their minds and that it's possible to put words to an experience and with enough repetition around this.

You know, how [00:15:00] often do we get to do something with our kids where there's that amount of practice or repetition that goes into it? Because first they're going to build the ramp and then the truck's going to go down and then it's going to want to do a jump and then it's going to want to land on a landing pad.

So the kids get a lot of repetition hearing us. Say what we think they're thinking, and then they can tell us whether we're right or wrong. But the more we do it, the better we get at it. And the more connected they feel with us, they feel our interest in them. And they also get the sense that it's possible to know what another person's thinking.

And they get even better at telling us, no, it's not going to do a jump. It's going to do a flip. So then they also can break things down in words. A lot faster, which can help them communicate calmly when a five year old is building their ramp. But their two year old sister comes in the room and they want to knock their block off because the two year old is going to try and dismantle what they're building.

So we need our kids to take on these skills. So [00:16:00] Maybe you can tell crystal that what's written in the way of play is like a way of connecting with your kid and play is really good for that. But think about where else we can take it in terms of the social emotional skills that we're laying the groundwork for the kids can get along.

I don't know, just reps in, and the brain needs reps in order for our kids to learn best. So there's that, and then there's also mirroring, and that's like non verbally matching what your kid is doing in their body, face, or voice. So you're adding the, like, the resonance, or you're switching on their mirror neurons while you're doing it.

So if you know, let's say, I don't know if people can see me. while they're listening to this, they probably can't cause there's no video to go with this, but if you could see me, like, let's say you just took your finger and you did like an upward motion as the jumping, your kid sees this mirrored in you and they have the experience of like, yes, you really understand me much more so than if we just say in words, what we saw.

So pair [00:17:00] those two things and you've got a really good start for being able to play with your kid in a way that builds all these skills.

Crystal: Yeah, I think that body language stuff is so important because I think we communicate so much more with that. And so I think we're going to be sitting there with them.

They're going to feel connected to, even if we get it wrong, even if they're like, you didn't match at all, what I just said, it was going to happen with this thing. It is such a good way to get into their world too. I remember hearing years ago connect before you direct. And that was one of the things that was so effective in my parenting is that I would take time instead of being like, okay, it's time for dinner.

And then not wanting to come and not wanting to pull out of this imaginary play. I coming alongside them and sitting with them and, you know, mentioning things like that, talking to them about what they're doing, letting them explain and show to me what they're playing and what's going to happen next and what they're excited about and entering their world then made it so much more seamless to get them to come and then do whatever was happening next.

Georgie: Yes, absolutely. You know, I think about times when my son comes to me and he's like, Mom, I really wanted this [00:18:00] thing. And I, you know, they didn't give it to me or my friend said that they were going to play with me. And then they didn't show up for the, you know, the virtual date or something. And, you know, sometimes it's just like we go, Oh, you know, there's just a tone of our voice or a look, you know, in our, In our facial expression or something where we don't even need to say anything to our kids and they know that we, okay, you get it.

And then they can move through the experience and, you know, it doesn't lead to a big tantrum or something like that. They just know that there's at least one person who does understand, even if nobody else does. And they feel heard. is about. Yeah, absolutely. So we can do that in our play too, which is kind of amazing to think about that some of these things that we want to give our kids anyway, we can also do it in play and it makes us better players and kids will turn to me and they'll be like, Oh, you're really good at this.

Like, I don't know what you're doing, but. You're a really good player and they'll tell, they'll say this to their parents too when their [00:19:00] parents learn these skills. And what better compliment is there than having your kid turn to you and say, Hey, you did a good job. You know, like we don't get thanked. I mean, we, make it thank yous, but our kids don't always appreciate how hard parenting is.

And they don't always appreciate the thought and the effort and the intention that goes into it. But when your kid turns to you and says like, Wow. Good job playing like that. That can feel really good. It's really encouraging.

Using Play to Navigate Conflict

Crystal: I do a lot of inner child work with people now, and I find that it's not just about like, Oh, let's heal this feeling that has come from my past or whatever.

It's actually let's connect to the ability to rest and the ability to play and to be creative also. And so as I do that, as I joined my child, I remember coming down the stairs the other day and my daughter was dancing to this loud music. And I, Started dancing too. She was almost going to stop as soon as I came down, right?

Like, Oh no, it's fine. I don't need to, you know, play this or whatever. And I just joined in and started dancing too. And there's been times where she's like, you're really good. Or like, Oh, I really liked that move or [00:20:00] something. Well, thank you. She's much nicer than my, like. You know, dance teachers when I was seven that were like, I don't know if you're cut out for this.

Right. So it actually can be really healing and beautiful to, to join in their play in ways that feel good. And I don't think you have to do it all of the time, you know, you know, worried so much about how much am I playing and all of the technical aspects of it, but. I think just, getting in there and trying and, continuing that practice can be so helpful.

Georgie: Yes, absolutely. And that leads me into another strategy. You made me think of it, Crystal, which is like, let's say that you're playing with your kid and all of a sudden, you know, they're just dancing in the kitchen or something, or They decide that they're going to do, you know, they're going to top down the stairs or something like that.

And then all of a sudden they kick into a higher gear, like something happens in their sensory system or the way that their energy is flowing in different parts of their body or their emotions kind of kick in around this and they [00:21:00] get really excited and they have an idea to do something that probably wouldn't be okay, or it's a little bit too intense or.

I don't know, raucous or something in the house. Let's say it goes from hopping down the stairs to I'm going to slide down the whole staircase or something that probably wouldn't be as safe to do. There's also strategies, two of them actually built into what we wrote, about how to help kids learn to dial intensity up or down in their bodies and their sensory system, but also in their emotions.

To try and match situations better, especially for our kids who are neurodivergent or they have trouble doing that. They, it's almost as if like a lot of people have a dial that you can't even see that's invisible, that you can turn it up and down to kind of match what's happening in your environment.

And some kids just. You know, weren't built that way aren't already kind of naturals at that and they need our help to kind of, I don't know, make adjustments and [00:22:00] sometimes those adjustments are small and other times we feel like they need to adjust a lot really fast and we sort of come down and give them hard stops on some of their behavior and we say like, Stop yelling or, you know, quit running in the house or don't, you know, don't slide down the stairs, things like that.

And the point behind the way of play isn't to let kids do whatever they want. It's called free play, so we should let them play and do anything and play as freely as they want to. No, we recognize the need for limits and we find structure to be really important for kids. And so we give. Like, for example, this one strategy is called dialing intensity up and down, which is really just about imagining that invisible dial and helping your kid tune in to what's happening so that they can make the adjustments they need to make.

So it might be as simple as saying, Hey, if you want to dance like that. Let's take it, you know, in this room with the beanbag and if you want to bump into things, you can fall into the beanbag or something like that. So it's really about [00:23:00] not coming down with a hard no, but helping kids to become aware of themselves so they can also learn how to make those fine tune adjustments when they need to so they can still express what they need to express.

And also learn something about how they relate to their environment in their sense.

Crystal: And you could probably do that in a playful way too. Right. You could probably be like, Hey, I have this idea of like, you know, this beanbag chair, whatever, like you can make it fun and exciting and engaging in a way that, that really helps them.

I remember, Dr. Debra McNamara, I had her on my podcast and she talks a lot about play. And she just said like, even in those moments of like strong emotion, right. Where you and your child are maybe getting into a situation that would normally be. A conflict where it would kind of scale up. Can you just pause in that moment?

And how can you bring play into that? Can you roar like a dinosaur or stomp or whatever? Obviously that's going to be different if you have a teen or a tween or a younger child, but is there a way to kind of bring playful energy in it? Because even my 15 year old, when I bring [00:24:00] playful energy into something that feels tense.

He immediately relaxes because he is like the funniest, goofiest humor is like his language. And so it's, if I can pause and allow my own emotions to sizzle down a little bit and then I can bring some amount of humor into that situation, it immediately changes the energy of that. What could have been a big conflict.
 

The Broader Importance of Play

Georgie: That is so right. Christopher. When I think about the times that we need play the most, it's often the times that as parents, we're not feeling the most playful. And I think Tina says it really well when she describes how the brain can't exist in threat and play at the same time. Those things are not compatible with each other.

So if I'm in a brain state where I feel like there's something threatening happening like my kid is angry at me or I'm mad at them or something's just not going right and I feel like as a parent, I'm not measuring up or something, that those are the times when we're going to feel our [00:25:00] least playful, but when we might need play the most and so actually bringing in play when we're not feeling all that playful can help give our kids a message of safety and say, hey, If you turn and look at me and I'm still able to smile and be goofy and be silly in this moment, it doesn't mean what you're doing isn't important.

Doesn't mean that we're not also going to figure this out together and try and work some way around this. But if my kid, my son, is like, you're being so mean. I don't want to do it. And you know, he's coming at me about something that I've asked him to do. And I turn around and I say, should I be the mad mommy right now?

Like I can come in and I can say, we actually have this game that we play where I'm like, all right, that's it, you know, and I'll really ham it up a little bit and burst into the giggles because he thinks it's so funny that I'm sort of making a mockery of myself. And I guess being able to mock ourselves a little bit or laugh at ourselves is really [00:26:00] important as our kids get older because they're going to laugh at us anyway.

They think that we're super embarrassing and cringey. And if we can laugh at ourselves together, then I think that rewires a little bit of the stress around these moments that we get into with our kids where they just don't want to do the thing. and it can often, and then my kid goes, all right, mad mommy, I'll bring my plate down to the kitchen.

Yeah. You know, I should have done that in the first place. And then he's motivated because play is such a motivator to,

Crystal: I think bringing those little moments of playfulness is interesting too, because it might feel overwhelming if somebody is listening to this and they're like, I hate play. How do I bring play into it?

Just start small. Like, how can you bring playful energy into those moments of conflict to try and switch that? I love that quote that you mentioned from Tina. Yeah, I think that's so, on par. I think that if we can move into that play energy, they'll immediately feel that safety and they'll, [00:27:00] recognize it.

Even if we don't say anything, it's just like our body language, our whole demeanor changes for us when we're doing it too.

Georgie: Yeah. So that's a big point in the book is, you know, we're not just saying to parents, like if you play with your kids for 15 minutes a day, that could change everything. It's really not just about the way that we play when our kids want to play with us, but it's also about embodying it's embodying a way of being.

If I can be in the way of play with my kid, if play is something that I can tap into when we need it the most in our relationship, then that means that we're always. on the cusp of being able to be our most creative and flexible in our families. We want that for ourselves. We want that for our kids. play is a state of being, it's a way of being.

And that's part of the reason why we called the book, the way of play too, by the way.

Crystal: I love that. I love that idea of it being a state of being and a way of being, because I think it is, it's so much [00:28:00] more about play energy. It's like, Can I harness that myself? And I actually think the more you do your own inner child work, it'll be a lot easier for you to tap into that creativity, that fluidity, that freedom of expression, which I think is going to be healing for us as a parent, maybe even more so than it will be for our kids.

Yes.

How Play Shapes Emotional Well-Being

Georgie: I'm glad you mentioned inner child work and we didn't cover this as much in the book, but it makes me think about like when we get into a state of flow in our own work, whatever that looks like. Like if you're, full time parenting and that's your work or if you have a job and then you come home to your kids at the end of the day and pick them up from school and bring them home whatever that looks like for you what i've found is that parents will often in the parents I've worked with they'll often say like i can't play with my kids in this way because nobody played with me in this way or in my family or in my culture in my background kids play with each other adults don't play [00:29:00] with the kids and so they have it in my repertoire to be playful in that way with my kids.

But then they notice that when they start using some of these ideas and they start sitting down with their kids, they set a timer for five minutes at a time or something. they realize that all of a sudden they have been in a state of flow. They've been in a state where they're not thinking about the laundry that's piled up or the dishes in the sink or the email they have to send later or something.

They really get into a state where more is possible because when we're in the state of our imagination, that's really our most creative. That's like our highest for us, and we see how our kids completely lose all track of time when they play, like I'll play with a kid and they'll say, okay, so we have a whole nother hour.

Right. And I'll be like, no, our time's almost finished. They, really would, they get immersed in it. And so if we have an opportunity to do just little stretches with our kids, where we [00:30:00] let them enter the state of flow, and then we also kind of enter it with them, we see that they're able to solve problems in ways that, you know, like, These two super guys have to break this other one out of jail because the villain caught them and how are they going to get him free?

And, oh mom, I see how to do it. And then, you know, we're enacting all of these, like we become very free and creative and solution focused. And I think that translates into tapping back into what we could have had as kids, what we want to give our kids now, and what we want to give ourselves as well, which is space to explore and be creative and get into the flow.

Crystal: Yeah. And we need to get into that creative flow state on our own also. So I think it's really helpful. I often see parents that feel a little bit more burnt out or stressed out about life in general. And I'll ask them like, what are you doing? That sparks joy for you. What are you doing for fun for you?

And they're like, I don't have time for fun. I don't have time to do things on my own. Right. Fun can look like anything. But I think [00:31:00] that we're all creators. We all innately want, have something that wants to be like let out. And, I think it's, it probably helps us get into that flow state as we see our children enter it, we're able to kind of enter it with them.

And then can we also take that, you know, throughout our life and, do little glimpses of that, even for ourselves.

Georgie: Yeah, I think that we should never stop playing and it doesn't have to be where I set aside time and I'm going to, you know, knit an entire sweater or something like that. oftentimes we feel guilty for taking time away from our families and I think that stops us from really kind of immersing ourselves in the same way that our kids can kind of get lost in the things that, you know, excite them or enliven them and make them super creative.

But it could just be like having lunch with a friend or having an extra long phone call with somebody you haven't talked to in a while, or it could be, you know, just doodling something on the paper that's next to you while you're in that work meeting or something. [00:32:00] It's almost like giving yourself permission to do something that's a little bit childlike, which I think is kind of ground upon for us to do things that are a little bit self focused or.

Childlike or something that would get us, give us funny looks from the other people around us or something. I think it's a little rebellious and it kind of, I don't know, I could see that as being healing for a lot of parents who were once kids who weren't allowed to do a lot of things.

Crystal: Oh, for sure. For sure.

This has been such a good conversation. I think even not just for kids, but for parents also and how it can, really help them. I want to ask one more thing before we end here. what do you think, why is place so crucial? Like if that wasn't something that was prioritized in a child's life, what would we see?

Play as a Social and Emotional Necessity

Georgie: I think we're seeing the effects of that right now as we see, at younger and younger ages. play is being removed from classroom [00:33:00] environments. We're seeing, in neighborhoods, we're seeing fewer kids being able to go out and play freely with other, you know, with other people and parks and stuff. I think that parents are really concerned about kids safety and I am too.

I think it's the way that it's gone that we, and we know that it has, a link. There are links now in the research to, kids suffering from more and more depression and anxiety, it's probably a direct causal link, but I can imagine that if we don't get enough time to move our bodies or be able to have a certain amount of independence where we get to explore our interests or be around other kids when there's no agenda being set by the adults and we get to just figure things out as you were talking about when we started this conversation, that's going to have [00:34:00] an impact on our kids.

So I think that it affects them cognitively, I think it affects them socially and emotionally in lots of different ways when they don't get enough time to play. But when we see parents learning some of the things we talk about in the way of play, what we notice is there's a new valuing of play without any sort of set agenda.

To the time, there's an appreciation of, you know, what play can do for kids. And really it's about freeing them up to be their full fullest selves and to give them opportunities to practice some of these skills in a way that they can really enjoy learning, with a little bit of guidance from their parents or when they're just playing with kids, their own age or by themselves, too.

So it's so important for us to be playing at home in schools and for kids to have lots of different types of play in their lives for their well being in the present and their ability to take on all the skills that we want them to have in the future.

Crystal: Yeah, absolutely. I [00:35:00] think that sometimes we just disregard it as this little thing that we will do extra if we happen to have time later today instead of it being like, it's actually just as integral as the other things that are happening throughout the day.

I just finished reading Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, and he, my favorite quote and the premise of the book is that we overprotect children in the real world and under protect them in the digital world. And, as he went through to kind of explain that more, he was talking about, you know, kids not being able to walk to the park or even like walk a block next door because we're just very, we're becoming much more overprotective in the physical world, even though the physical world isn't actually a less safe place than it was statistically years ago.

We feel like it is because of our access to information. And it feels like that because we see. so much, you know, on social media and online all the time. So I, love, he shares similar ideas in just the free play and can we let our guard down a little bit? Can we let our kids loosen up a little bit more, have a little bit more of that unstructured play [00:36:00] time.

But I also love this idea of we can also join them in that too. And that it can not only be good for them, but we can learn something ourselves from it, the experience.

Georgie: Yeah, I think play just makes for a better society and it can also be sort of an act of, regeneration. We were talking before this about being able to regenerate the way that people, I don't know, grow food or the way that we conduct business and all of these things.

I think that play is so regenerative for us as well. As well, like it helps us reconnect to what we didn't get in our childhoods and it brings us more in tune with our kids and what we want to give them now in the present. It's just very grounding in that sense. And our hope is that when parents get to discover some of the things that we teach, whether you read the book or whether you're just listening to this podcast or whatever, that you'll, discover a [00:37:00] few new things about it and that you'll just be able to enjoy your kids that much more.

Where to Find the Book

Crystal: Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. Where can people find you? Where can they buy your book? What do they need to know?

Georgie: Yeah, so you can find The Way of Play now pretty much everywhere books are sold, but, particularly, we've noticed that people are, like, getting the audio book and, Kindle. And obviously, the hardback is available as well. You can find the book, like, link to it through our website at theplaystronginstitute. com. you can also follow me on Instagram at GeorgieWissendVincent. and, you know, I think all that is going to be available

Crystal: That will all be linked in the show notes. So you don't have to memorize all those things, but you'll be able to just scroll down and see that. Thank you for being on here. And, if you loved this episode and you have questions for her, reach out, chat with her on Instagrams under a message. And, thanks so much for being here today.

Georgie: [00:38:00] Yes, definitely would love that. And thank you so much, Crystal.

That was a really fun interview.

Crystal: If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, I would love for you to help spread the word by getting this message of support and guidance out to as many people as possible. So text it to your best friend or tag me on Instagram and share it.

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