Feeding our kids has much more to do with relationship and connection- than it does with actual food. Connected and supportive family meals can be super simple, but lead to deep relationships, higher literacy and better digestion.
Tune into our conversation on the podcast today, as I interview Dr. Deborah Macnamara, a Developmentalist and founder of Kid's Best Bet Counselling who makes sense of kids for the adults responsible for raising them. She "translates developmental science into practical love” according to Gabor Maté, through her work as a counselor, author, teacher, and researcher.
In this episode:
- How feeding kids (and fussy eating) is so much more than just food
- The best non-food food book ever written: Nourished
- The surprising bits of food research that Dr Macnamara discovered as she dealt with her own picky eaters, and how it impacts relationships
- The 3 ingredients you want to include in your meals (hint: none of them are food)
- How to care for and connect with your kids through nourishing them
Connect with Dr Macnamara:
Facebook- Dr. Deborah MacNamara
Twitter- @debmacnamara
IG- HERE
Website: www.gathertoeat.com
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Connect with Crystal:
Intuitive Journaling Prompts HERE and a somatic meditation (Move through frustration in 15 minutes or less) HERE, The Art of Non-Attachment Workshop HERE
Get started on this work with daily practice in a journal, Burn This Book (a great intro to mental and emotional wellness) HERE
Work with Crystal 1:1: www.coachcrystal.ca/miracle or in group: www.coachcrystal.ca/creationroom
Grab your copy of Crystal’s feelings wheel here: www.coachcrystal.ca/wheel
Find your parenting personality (and get tips specific to it) by taking the quiz HERE
Full Transcript
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Crystal: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Parenting Coach Podcast with Crystal. Over seven years ago, I felt like I was stuck in this cycle of yelling and reactivity in my parenting that I did not want to be in, but I didn't know how to get out of, I knew how I wanted to parent pretty much exactly, and I'd spent hours reading books, but not finding a way to show up how I wanted to.
That's when I started to turn inwards. My own inward journey was what my family needed. As I changed everything around me, changed my kids' meltdowns, decreased by 90% or more with no medications or therapy. I stopped yelling. Sibling fighting became almost entirely nonexistent, and I found that this change flowed into other areas of my life too.
My intuition increased. I started to run my life in business in a very different way. If this sounds like something you want, Sue, I can help. Join me each week as I share my journey, including the laughter, fun, hard times, and tears. Tune in for support, guidance, and fun conversations. With my favorite experts and really anything else that interests me too.
Introduction to the Podcast & Final Season
Hello everybody. Welcome to today's podcast episode. [00:01:00] this has been such a fun last season. If you missed my announcement already earlier in the season, this is our last season, season 10 will be the final one, but we will keep all these episodes up so you can keep listening to them and sharing them. I'm really excited for today's interview because Dr.
Deborah McNamara was actually one of our first guests way back in like, I don't know, season one or two or something years ago. And, it was a lovely episode. You can go back and listen to that. It was all about connection and parenting and kind of changing the way that we parent. And, she has a new book out that we're gonna talk about today that I have not read, and so I'm really excited to hear more about it.
So do you wanna just introduce yourself a little bit for people that might not know you yet?
Meet Dr. Deborah Macnamara
Dr. Macnamara: Sure I am. Oh my goodness, who am I? I am a counselor, I guess I've written a couple of books. I'm a mother of two, grown kids, now, two, a 21-year-old and 19-year-old. And I work, at the Newfield Institute. I. On faculty with, Gordon Neufeld, who's been my mentor for many years now, many [00:02:00] decades.
And I'm passionate about human development and helping our children realize their full potential, which rests upon actually parents, and the kind of environment that we create. And, that could be educational context too. So just really have a passion for helping people grow.
Crystal’s Personal Parenting Journey
Crystal: Yes. I love that. And if you listen to my episode years ago I was sharing kind of my own parenting story, which is like deeply entrenched with exactly what she's talking about right now.
I read Gordon Neufeld book, hold Onto Your Kids When My Kids Were Toddlers, struggled to try and figure out how to implement that for years. Found rest, play, grow for preschoolers or anyone who acts like it. Something like that. I can't remember the subtitle, but it was good. That's. And was able to find a facilitator through the Neufeld Institute.
And that's kind of what got me started on my own journey of being able to really figure out what was happening with me and my child that was Neurodiverse and he had, him and I had a hard parenting journey and, [00:03:00] and that really helped us shift things around. And over the course of about a year, his behavior changed drastically without any.
Behavioral therapy for him or medication or any of those things. His behavior was diff, a complete was a completely different child in a year. And, it was, it was crazy to see that that attachment and connection really can make such huge, I. Leaps and changes in a child. And so, that's kind of been a huge, integral part of my journey, which is why I wanted to have around the podcast years ago.
And, it's such a good conversation there. But since then, you have written a book called Gather to Eat.
Dr. Macnamara: Nourish. Actually, my course nourish to eat. Yeah, that's okay. Okay. Your
Crystal: course is gathered to eat. Nourish. Yeah. I would love to hear, both about like the course and the book and especially this connection between like connection and eating and food and what the connection that you see there and that you have seen over the last few years.
From Picky Eating to Connection: The Birth of Nourished
Dr. Macnamara: I. Yeah, so the, the full title is [00:04:00] Nourished, connection, food and Caring for Our Kids or anyone else We Love. I had to keep it from the similar to the Rest play, grow book with the preschoolers.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: essentially it was a book I never really intended to write. However, it came about as a parent of a young child.
You know, my three-year-old, I had a five-year-old who was picky and fussy and wasn't eating well. And then I went to my supervisor, Dr. Gordon Neufeld at the time, and asked about picky eating and he didn't answer my question.
Crystal: Mm-hmm. In fact,
Dr. Macnamara: he pointed me back to what I already knew. how was it that I was creating an attachment problem, a relationship problem around food when this was what I did?
I mean, I helped families with attachment, relational issues, but what had happened to food that it somehow was. Not connecting with what I knew. And I also found this to be true for a lot of my colleagues, and that is that it seems like there's been a divorce between food and how we feed. It's become about nutrients.
It's become about what we eat, but we've lost the thread. something's become [00:05:00] very broken in our culture around food feeding, eating together. is that it's not embedded in relationships anymore. and so I realized that some this tragic divorce. This untethering had happened and, and proceeded for the next 10 years to try to do the research, to try to un, you know, demystify some of the things that I was seeing.
The Cultural Disconnect Around Food
Like the family meal is a sacred act. Well, no, it's not necessarily. As a counselor in my practice, lots of people would eat food together and they didn't like each other and they didn't eat very well together. And, and they hated coming to the table. And it was the last place you wanna be if you're an adult child of an alcoholic, like, and kids would get like very rambunctious.
And weren't sitting down to eat, and parents had these good intentions, and so what I've realized profoundly. After 10 years of working in practice with families around issues like this, and it wasn't just, they came in for food issues, they came in for relationship issues. Mm-hmm. Like,
Crystal: oh,
Dr. Macnamara: how's food going?
Well, not so great. Okay, well let's look that. Yeah. Sometimes it's just picky eating and we don't [00:06:00] understand a little two, 3-year-old who's just like discovering food and is. Going from becoming a, an, being simply fed to becoming an eater. There's a developmental transition here and we get so up in their face and misunderstand mm-hmm.
Very quickly here when we should give it a little bit more time. and then sometimes we're getting really stuck with food and, and eating disorders and rates. Of these things are only on the increase, and I'm absolutely convinced that we need to look at it through relational and developmental and an emotional lens.
What's happening when these things come undone? What happens when we're not eating and feeding in the context of attachment with caring emotions and safety and, don't understand human development? Well, it's a mess. It's an absolute mess. And, and so I try to put the pieces together in a way that is, as shame free as possible.
I mean, I can't control what people will feel, but in a way that it makes it easy to talk about these things without feeling, uh mm-hmm. You know? Too much emotion flooding you [00:07:00] and then not wanting to deal with it at all. So
Parenting Through Food: What Changed for Me
Crystal: yeah, I'd love to hear back in your experience when, when you first went to Dr.
Gordon Neufeld and he kind of brought you back to your own attachment and relational issues, what was it that you kind of uncovered with your own relationship with your kids?
Dr. Macnamara: I was, I was being completely coercive and I was alarmed that my children weren't eating the way I wanted to actually, correction one was eating just fine.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: Fine in my book. 'cause she ate everything I made and she loved it. Mm-hmm. And, she's an incredible foodie herself. But the, the, my littler one, what I didn't understand was her. Chemical sensing sensitivities, the taste, the smell, the touch, everything. Mm-hmm. that was quite profound for her.
and she wasn't like my other daughter, so all my usual tricks didn't work. She wasn't receptive. And so what happened is I became pushier. I started hiding food. I tried to, you know, coerce, cajole. I mean, I wasn't cruel, but I was just incredibly frustrated. And of course, this is what [00:08:00] happens is that, because foods is so close to, Care and life giving. Mm-hmm. That we get very alarmed, like the mother who can't breastfeed. Like, oh my goodness, this stirs our emotional buttons up, stirs up our emotions and pushes our buttons. And so that's where I was at. I was alarmed and I was like, why is she resisting? Mm-hmm. She just, she just needs to eat what I give her.
Oh my. And then you go
Crystal: back to the coercive technique. That is always my go-to. I'm like, if I can't figure this out, oh know, I'll force them. I have a 9-year-old right now. Exactly the same. Does not love food, is not an adventurous eater. Finds anything that's like a new color or a new anything. Yeah. Just like, nope, not going to eat that.
Nothing with sauce, nothing with color to it. It all has to be bland. Yeah. And yeah, and I think it's really easy to like get into that mode of kind of fearful, like, well, she has to eat. What if she's not eating enough? Which, what if she's not getting enough nutrients? And then move into that more coercive like, like you mentioned, like we'll just hide food or we'll force food, or we'll sit here at the table until they.
You [00:09:00] know, eat their whole meal or whatever, which then becomes a relational problem.
Dr. Macnamara: Oh, a huge one. Yeah. And I think parents get alarmed. They also get frustrated. They're spending time and energy and money on making food. And you know, time is tough for parents. A lot of parents. Mm-hmm. You
Crystal: know.
Dr. Macnamara: With, working outside the home.
And so parents get really frustrated and they just don't wanna come home. They wanna enjoy their meal, they wanna enjoy their time together. But see, the whole thing is just, it's just, it's not the place of rest. It used to be. It's just not the place of rest. We're not at rest around our food and we're certainly not at rest with each other.
these periods of time for lots of good reasons, and not because we don't have good intentions, we have wonderful intentions, but there's, this is an emotional process. It's a relational process. And, and so I, I went into that to discover, well, what does it mean to be a provider? What does food actually, you know, how can food be embodied with relationship and with emotions to become a gift that is shared, that is in, you know, [00:10:00] that symbolizes caring.
Like, how does food become caring? If a stranger gives me food, I don't feel cared for, but if someone I love gives me food, I feel cared for, what is that magical process that happens? It's incredible, it's invisible, but it all gets encoded on food. Why do we reach for comfort food? Mm-hmm. What is comfort food?
None of the research could point to what is comfort food. Oh, it seems to vary. Well, of course it does because each of us has this different signature imprint of a person or the emotions that go with them. And so it's incredibly fascinating. you know, a topic and research from disorder to. Comfort like it's, it's, it's gigantic and yet you see over and over again.
What does it come back to? We need to think about connection. We need to think about how relationships take care of the human heart and create a place of rest. And when we do, then the body can take what it is that we offer. And a child is most receptive to being cared for. [00:11:00] It always comes back down to that.
Crystal: Absolutely. I think connection is at the core to everything. We all want that just like we want food, just we, we need love and connection just as much. I love what you said about how does food become caring. Mm-hmm. And so I would love to talk to like if somebody's feeling like you were a few years ago when your kids were a little younger and you were like more finding yourself in that kind of coercive parenting style, knowing that you wanted to relate to her in a more connected and caring way.
how did you switch that? What changed?
Dr. Macnamara: Well, I had to wrestle with myself a lot, and obviously my daughter presented a huge amount of futility because she just wouldn't eat as I wanted. Mm-hmm. So, and I didn't wanna keep doing battles. Mm-hmm. So I retreated from the battles. But then what do you retreat to?
The Three Ingredients of Loving Food
Well, I retreated to, to being a provider, you know, and, and, and Ellen Satter's, division of responsibility is very helpful here for parents. Right. Where essentially you decide what you're going to feed [00:12:00] and when you're going to do that. Mm-hmm. A child decides how much they want to eat from what you've given.
and so it, it outlines it. But then I realized, well, but, but what is, like, how do we do relationship? What is emotional rest? And so I, I was digging into that a little bit more. And one of the things I found in my research is I asked everybody these questions and one of the ones that was very, revealing was I said, can food have love in it?
And everybody said, yes, food embodies love or has love in it. And and food can be absolutely devoid and absent of it. Like when I heard my mother, you know, clanging pots and pans in the kitchen and then served it up, it's like, yeah, nobody wants to eat that angry soup.
Crystal: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Macnamara: But when I, did the qualitative analysis on the, the interviews, what I found with the, there was three ingredients that food had to have in order to embody this sense of love in it.
And the first was, was there time and [00:13:00] intent? time and attention paid
Crystal: mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: To the food. Now people might think, oh, I don't have time to make all these big meals. Mm-hmm. It wasn't actually quantified. It was the sense. In the person who received the food or was cared for, that someone took some time and paid attention to them, had kept them on their radar, had noticed what was important to them, and instead of making rice made pasta because they've got a rice kit instead of a pasta kit.
Simple as that. That was time and attention. Someone was thinking of me because that's about significance. Do I matter to that person, which is about attachment?
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: The second thing was intention. What was the person's intentions in feeding me? And this is very interesting in that if you perceive someone's intentions as being good, it can actually change.
Your experience of reality in that food tasted better when you believe that someone was really trying to care [00:14:00] for you. So, and, and you may have experienced this yourself, like people have made dishes. My daughter made me Dish Mother's Day that had, it was spicy, it was paella. And I said, well, I love it.
It's great. It's a little bit spicy, but I don't mind that, actually don't, you should like spicy food, but I really like this. And then it dawned on her and she said, mom, I put a tablespoon of pepper instead of a teaspoon. Spicy. And I'm like, but it tastes so good. And it really did because she had made this dish for me on Mother's Day.
It was the best dish. Right. So it actually changes it, even if there's something off, even if grandma always forgot an ingredient, like, you know? Mm-hmm. You heard stories over and over again that it still tasted good because someone's intentions was to care for me.
Crystal: And then, well, I think of the opposite too.
Like I remember times where I just wanna get over it. Like, I'm just like, why is this taking so long? Like just tell me what it is that you'll eat so that I can move on to the next thing. Right. Whereas the opposite, like, not that I had a bad intention, but there was no intention. It was kind of like, let's just get [00:15:00] through this really quickly.
Exactly. The intention wasn't care. The intention wasn't goodness. You got it. And I'm sure it wasn't a good experience for them either. So I love that kind of contrast of like, what intention are we putting in here?
Dr. Macnamara: Exactly is food fuel or is food emblematic of the caring that you wish to deliver to a loved one?
And it can be simple. Mm, it can be a can of soup if you open it up and you can serve that with caring. I mean, I'm not, there's no prescriptions around what people eat or, in this book or in my material. 'cause that's not my thing. people I trust will figure out. In fact, the research shows that parents are 87% in this one research study that parents say.
80%, 87% of them say, we know with a good idea. We have a good idea of what, what we should be feeding our kids.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: Where over 70% of parents said they struggled was how? And so, yes, is what I'm talking about is how is food fuel? Come on, hurry up, we gotta get to practice. Come on. Mm-hmm. Why are you finishing?
Don't you know you go to bed hungry? Oh my gosh. I can't believe I just made that. How do, how am I have to [00:16:00] cook three meals a day? Oh, every time I open up your lunchbox, nothing is eaten. Oh my God. How much that lettuce cost me. Like, I mean, I get it. I'm a parent and it's frustrating. Oh, this didn't turn out.
Are we? So much time in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. But here's the thing, those kind of things infuse the environment you eat in it also in it says something to your loved ones about your intentions, right? I've had kids where, you know, they, they sense the good intention in the parent. This little 4-year-old, he sensed the good intention as mother and feeding something and looks at her very gingerly and very tenderly and says, mommy did.
Did you miss anything in the recipe for this? It didn't taste the best, but he is like, I'm pretty sure she was trying to care for me here. Like mm-hmm. It just feels different. And the whole point is, is what makes you feel nourished? The whole title of the book. What does it mean to be nourished? If you look the word nourished, many people will look food, food, food.
Food doesn't nourish on its own. It can't nourish you on its own. It can't nourish you without being empowered with relationship and the emotions. So there was time and attention [00:17:00] was the first thing to embody food with love. Intention, your good intentions. Mm-hmm. Food is not fuel. And the third thing was, was there carrying and warmth?
Food as an Expression of Connection
Was there carrying and warmth in the delivery? Was there carrying and warmth in The individual? Was there carrying and warmth around the gathering of the food? And, and that is just, you know, it, it really felt like to me what people were saying is we need some guardrails. We need some guardrails to push out everyday life and say, stop.
Yes, there's things that are important and even urgent, but this is sacred. This is important. Even if it's, you know, 15 minutes for a single mom coming together with her son who's eating a bowl of cereal and having a cup of coffee. Their 15 minute ritual of just checking in over food, putting that all together so that when he went to school, his tummy is full of connection, relationship.
And the food that is meant to nourish him, where whatever the source was, that piece, we can't, eclipse. It's, it's, [00:18:00] how we eat, is it sets us up for true nourishment. We can shovel food in our mouth. It doesn't mean it's all being digested. It doesn't mean it's actually serving our bodies well. and it doesn't mean that our kids are receptive to it, or that they'll be receptive to more.
Food, Regulation, and Rest
Crystal: I love that this food book is like, not about food. It doesn't tell you what to eat. You
Dr. Macnamara: got it. It's like the best. You haven't read the book and now you figured it out. Everybody thinks it's the best non-food, food book
Crystal: ever.
Dr. Macnamara: It's, it's the best non-food book ever. Yeah, absolutely. It really
Crystal: is. And I think, I love this idea of if, if any of you are listening to this, you probably have heard the term rest and digest.
So when your nervous system is calm and regulated, that's the only space in which your body can actually rest and you can actually digest, like digestion does not happen when you're feeling dysregulated. So what you're saying is actually true. You could be putting a lot of food in your mouth and not actually digesting it.
Dr. Macnamara: Yeah, well, the alarm system can take over the gut and I spend one or two chapters, I spend one whole chapter called Gut Feelings on, [00:19:00] just the whole process of, not digestion, but how the intersection of our emotions. And, digestion, our endocrine system, our home, our hormones. How much of this is just tied up in this beautiful gut surveillance system now, known, through gastroenterology and the gut brain access?
There's wonderful research happening here. There are microbiome and things like that. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, that research is fascinating. But what does it mean for everyday practice? Mm-hmm. It means that our body, what's, what's the underlying message? Our body does best when it's in relationship.
Mm-hmm.
Crystal: We seem
Dr. Macnamara: to live the longest in the research. We are the healthiest, we are the happiest. We are more likely to achieve our full potential, whatever that looks like. You know, kids do better, adults do better. And so what is the key to nourishment? What's the key to longevity? It's relationship,
Crystal: relationship and connection.
The Research Behind the Power of Mealtime
as you were going through this kind of for yourself and you're [00:20:00] starting to study for those years that Dr. Neufeld was like, okay, go. You know, you're on your own or whatever. I'm not asking your question. I'm not answering your question. That leads to this whole beautiful insight, right? Like some of our best mentors are the ones who don't answer our Exactly.
Exactly. I, I love that, that, that he guided you to that. And so as you're kind of going through this and you're starting to really delve into the research, was there anything in the, in research that really was interesting or stood out or surprised you?
Dr. Macnamara: Oh my gosh. So many things. So many things. But I think one of the things that I'll, I talk about here is just the table, you know, the holy grail of the table, and we have to eat together.
It really bothered me and I left that one for a while because I thought, I don't have all the pieces to understand it, but I found this beautiful piece of research by, two sociologists, Musik and Meyer Muac, M-U-S-I-C-K, and Meyer, and there were sociologists who stripped out. A lot of the confounding variables [00:21:00] in, the correlational research.
And what I mean by that is that what we don't often understand is that two things get paired together and they're correlational. Meaning when this happens, this one has a high chance of happening, but there's no causality there. We don't understand why the two things are paired. It's not like one causes the other.
They just seem to go together. They're good partners. But what they did, which was really interesting, which you can do with more sophisticated research methodology, is they stripped out any reasons and causality for this pairing. So they stripped out, you know, socioeconomic status. They stripped out any, ethnicity or geographic location, educational level in the parent marriage status.
And they looked at these families that still had family meals together, and kids. Had good resiliency. And what they found is that even when they got rid of all those confounding variables that would inf influence whether or not you could eat meals together, they found one [00:22:00] simple causality, which was the values of the caretaker, determined the practices in the home, like keeping the family meal.
Crystal: It
Dr. Macnamara: came down to the caretaker, over and over again. It was the values, the practices, and the principles. These were caretakers who believed that relationships were important and kept one of the best vehicles for embodying, caring, and taking care of your families, which was a meal.
Crystal: Mm-hmm. Il.
Dr. Macnamara: They, they used what they had available to them to keep on to, those connections close.
And that makes sense because it's correlated with resiliency and emotional health and wellbeing and self-esteem and success at school literacy rates. You wanna improve literacy rates. You know, vocabulary's in kids that actually eat together in connection with a caretaker like this. Do you know the vocabulary, their vocabulary rates?
And yet, what do we do? We throw all sorts of money into literacy. Not that we shouldn't because some kids [00:23:00] do struggle. We need extra support. But what if we also use what we've been using since, you know, time immemorial?
Crystal: Well, I've never once heard that at school, where they're like, you know, what is really helpful for your kids?
Have dinner together. Like don't worry about like reading the book that we sent home at night where they always read that book that you're supposed to read with them really quickly before they go to school the next day. At least that's how we did it. It was like rushing through it to like check off the box, but like sit down to have a meal together will improve literacy rates.
That's like if you're talking
Dr. Macnamara: if they're connected. Yeah. If you're talking. If you're connected, you can, you can read a strep. I've had people who read books together at the meal. Obviously they're not the one eating, you know, and chewing.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: But, yeah, I mean, togetherness opens up this place of rest.
If there's true togetherness, there's rest, and then you're receptive. You're receptive not only to the food, but the other thing is, is that kids are receptive to the stories of their family. So kids who actually ate together knew more about. Their ancestors and had what they called an [00:24:00] intergenerational identity.
Not just an identity in the home, but they had a whole village of attachment. Their past ancestors, their past stories of who they were. And so that sense of belonging, of loyalty, of significance extended far beyond the family grouping and reached right back into the ancestors. This is who you are from.
You know, the stories that you tell, there's, there's one study that they did with these kids and they asked them, who has a permanent grumpy face in your family? And every kid said there was, at least every kid said there was one family member who seemed to have a grumpy, permanent resting face or whatever.
And so it was just like what kids were picking up and knew and understood, and, and how that created a narrative for their self. and anchoring in a world where, you know, screens or peers or so many
Crystal: things
Dr. Macnamara: are taking them out from underneath you. I, I began to see that actually having a meal. We're serving food with this in mind, that this is one of the best [00:25:00] ways we can hold onto our kids today.
Mm-hmm. All the way through into adult years. It's incredible. It's incredible. yeah. Families coming together this way. Just this last weekend, I had my grown, daughter. who's 19 and some of her friends up that I hadn't met, and I have a neighbor, and we went, up skiing and together we put on a huge meal for the kids.
And, they had wanted to go out later and, you know, go down to some of the clubs, but they were full. They were full, they were content.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: They went down. They said, oh, we just love the Homecooked food and thank you so much. And I feel like I'm at home and my mother's caring for me from the brownies to the rose beef.
Mm-hmm. Or whatever it was. And I just thought, you know, these two moms, two families coming together and, and the dads coming together. you know, just taking them out. Skiing, we felt safe and it was just like these kids, you could just see the rest in them. They're 19. Yeah. There is the, the coming [00:26:00] home still, please take care of me, the longing for home.
You take me, put brownies in my pocket like my mother does. And you could just feel it like this is the way we hold on. It's one of a, it's a very powerful way and it can look whatever it looks like for you.
Creating a Sense of Home Through Ritual
Crystal: I love that. I remember, hearing you talk about the book. This was before it came out, and I remember you just kind of preemptively talking about it and I was like, huh, I wonder if this is a book about food.
But pretty soon I was like, okay. Yeah, I think this is a book about connection and a book about attachment. And I, I realized right away why it was so important because safety and security is necessary for relationship. And if our kids are feeling physically safe and secure, if they're feeling like.
There's a home that we can come to that is safe and warm and protected. There is a place where we can come to where our feelings are safe and warm and protected, where we can come to a table where we are going to be taken care of or we don't have to worry about things. I just, I was like, yes, that's what it is, and even just.
[00:27:00] Reading about your book helped change the way that I started doing with my kids. Because for me, Emile was kind of like this chore that I had to do at the end of the day to make sure that we all like didn't die. It wasn't like this thing that I like looked forward to. And so I really started trying to change this approach in my mind of like, I.
Okay, if this is how I'm showing them that I care for them, if this is the safety and security that I'm providing for them so that it's something they don't have to worry about, but that is me connecting. And you know, I don't always have time to just sit down and make sure I spend time connecting with every single kid all day long with a, a midst of the things.
But that, that is connection that is showing
Dr. Macnamara: exactly. Exactly. I mean, I think you nailed it. It's a, it's a beautiful reframe of it. It's, you know, what's most important in growing and human development and, and being well and being nourished, and that is safety and trust in the environment and the people that you are in, because that helps bring the body, the mind, the heart, everything to rest, which is, [00:28:00] rest is a place of growth.
You can create. You can imagine, you can care, you can set goals, you can face your fears, you know, if, if you're not at rest. It's very difficult to do any of those things. And so what does a feeding someone give us an unparalleled opportunity to do two to three times a day? Mm-hmm. Convey, you can trust me, I'll take care of you.
Yes. I did this safety, security care. Yes. Trust. And that's why, you know, food and that relationship is all, it's a trusting relationship. Mm-hmm. It's built on trust. Mm-hmm. And so what happens when you continuously show up in, in a way that tries to, you know, make this an experience about relationship and about, caring is that it, it, it builds that trust over time.
And so your kids come home because you are home.
Crystal: Yes. I love that your kids come home because you are home. I was having a conversation with someone, a year or so ago about connection based parenting. I was trying to like teach them it, and they were just like not on board. They were like, no, no, no, no.
Like you parent, you know, they [00:29:00] just kind of felt like it was like letting your kids off the hook and you, they needed kids that were more strict and whatever, and I kind of paused and asked them like, okay, well tell me about your relationship with your parents. When's the last time you, you know, talked to them?
No, not that there wasn't a relationship because they never wanted to be around them, but like, they didn't talk to them in like a year. They didn't try to reach out to them. They didn't look forward to going home. There was no attachment there. And I said that. I'm like, okay, well, what kind of a relationship do you want your kids to have with you in 20 years?
Do you want that? Do you want where they could care less if you call? How sad would you be if they actually died? Versus like you are their home. You are their space where they want to come home to. And for me, that is my goal. Yeah. Beyond like what it is that, you know, whether or not I have time to make a meal or whatever, like how can I create connection and attachment, even if it is just opening a can of soup, even if it is just giving them a pre-prepared meal from somewhere.
Like it's not about the food, it's about how am I preparing this? And I love your idea [00:30:00] of like. Banging pots and pans. Angry soup versus like connection soup. 'cause I think I felt both ways in the kitchen, like what, what emotions am I stirring into the ingredients of this exactly this food that I'm making.
From Insight to Action: Inside the Gather to Eat Course
can you tell us a little bit about your course? So nourished is the book, gather to Eat is the course. I got those mixed up in the beginning, but gather to eat. Tell us a little bit about what you hope to help parents through.
Dr. Macnamara: Well, I hope to slow, I, I hope to provide a more, not slow, but in-depth look at what it means to take the lead around food.
I think the book was insight based and mm-hmm. Provides recipes, you know, relational recipes, if you wanna put it that way. But what I also heard from people is that this is, it feels like really. I don't wanna say deep, but it moves people profoundly. This work different than rest, play, grow did and I would give a presentation and then the audience would be [00:31:00] quiet and I didn't know how to interpret that silence, but people, it took them right back into themselves.
I. Took them back into their relationships with their kids because you've got the intersection of two things that are truly life giving. This gift of food for Mother Nature and our relationships that paired together. It's very powerful. So the, the, the book was really insight based, looking at how, you know, why this is important, how we do it, but the course is really gonna take us into, well, what's getting in the way.
Crystal: Hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: And how do we start to transform ourselves from the inside out? And it's to really let it wash over you in a different way, in a new way, in a, in community, non-judgmental, community where you can start to say, okay, I can feel these things shift. But sometimes, you know, like any habit, you can start something.
You need if you're in a world that pulls you
Crystal: mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: In a very different [00:32:00] direction. You gotta stick that landing until it's habit.
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: And so this is also a walk to say, well, how am I going to do things differently? What does this mean for me? How do I see my child differently? How do I show up differently?
So it's, it's. Called, gather to eat, but gather means relationships. So we put relationship before food. So we're gonna be talking about relationship, we're gonna be talking about your feeding style, we're gonna be talking about emotion. We're gonna be talking about how we can be a tummy whisper and get in there if we think some stuff is going on and, and bring our kids to rest.
And most importantly, how do we move to ritual that can set up those guardrails that can hold us in place relationally. Create a place of rest in a world that, is built on separation and anxiety.
Anxiety, Tummy Aches, and Emotional Signals
Crystal: Yes. Our world is so built on separation. It's like make yourself as busy as possible, doing all of the things that you can to avoid the what's [00:33:00] happening on your own inside, what's happening in your own personal relationships.
And I think that simplifying process is like the healing process. It's like, how can I do things a different way than the world is doing it? How can I take time to actually. Have meals with each other to have relationship matter most to spend time in relationship. Mm-hmm. this sounds beautiful. I would love to hear just for a minute about the tummy whispering part.
Becoming a Tummy Whisperer
Tell me about that. Is that for kids with anxiety, tummy?
Dr. Macnamara: Well, yeah. I mean, anxiety in the gut. I mean, they're just best friends really. that's, we have so much of our emotions, signals go into the gut. Mm-hmm. Emotion signals go into the gut, relate to the brain. And so the, the thing is, is about the gut is the gut has no words.
It just sends signals up into the brain. positive, negative valence, emotional valence. So, you know, is it, is it uncomfortable or comfortable? And how intense?
Crystal: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Macnamara: That's a signal that the stomach extends to the brain. And so then the brain has to interpret those signals if it can with a prefrontal [00:34:00] cortex and mm-hmm.
Crystal: That
Dr. Macnamara: reflection capacity, well, preschoolers have no capacity for reflection. And when you're very stirred up and you're under a stress response, reflective capacity is often offline. Right? So if my child comes to me and, this has happened before, you know, well, this is
Crystal: my child. That's why I'm asking you.
I'm like, yeah, this is my child who I'm like, okay. Is it it? Does it feel like emotional discomfort or physical discomfort? That's usually the, see, that's the thing is that's
Dr. Macnamara: where you go in your head is, is what piece is from where. Mm-hmm. And we can't possibly determine that. But the fact that we're paying attention, the fact that we have their tummy on our radar as a sign, not just a physical health, but of emotional health.
You're already there. To some degree because then you're gonna start to test the waters. Like, you know, I, I tell the story about my sister. When my younger sister was born, it was, she went, went to school, it was grade one, and she had nonstop tummy aches. Took her to the doctor, old school 40, 40 years ago or whatever.
The doctor said, oh, she's just got some anxiety. 'cause the baby's born, she'll be okay. Just give her some extra [00:35:00] time. Tummy aches cleared. Mm. My other sister took her son, you know, to the hospital, said he is got horrible, horrible tummy aches and stuff. Well, they live beside a blueberry patch and he'd ate his body weight and blueberries and was full of gas.
So, you know, and then sometimes, you know, like I have my kids, they'll come home and like, yes, there's anxiety. like my daughter would say, you know, there's butterflies in my tummy, or My tummy feels like it's making butter. And she could feel that visceral. And sometimes she was excited. Sometimes she was scared, sometimes she was hungry.
Sometimes they all came together. But see, as a caretaker, your job is not to necessarily know all those answers. Your job is to keep them on your radar so that you're moving to provide. It's not about perfection in the provision. It's just about, okay, this is my responsibility. Okay, I gotta figure this out.
This child's in pain. Mm-hmm. Are they physically sick? You, you know, vomiting? Are they vomiting due to anxiety? Are they vomiting? 'cause they got, they're sick. I. I
Crystal: mean,
Dr. Macnamara: it can come from both [00:36:00] ways. Children don't know, but they're meant to have caretakers who are trying to figure it out. That's the whole point.
So becoming a tummy whisperer, you know, I know, one of my daughters, she's a little bit more gassy that way. I know my other daughter's much more likely to be anxiety.
Crystal: Yeah, and I, so we often have conversations like this with my daughter and I'll say like, emotional discomfort kind of feels like this for me.
Sometimes it feels physically like this and kind of explain it a little bit. And I'll be like, what do you think? What do you think it might be? And sometimes she won't know. And sometimes she'll say, oh, I think, I think it was emotional. And oftentimes I've noticed it happens before. She's gonna go somewhere where there's people.
Yeah, before church, before school, before an activity. As soon as she gets there, she forgets about it and she's totally fine. Got it. And so then I kind of point those things out. Sometimes your, you know, your tummy feels like this way, and it's not actually physical sometimes it's just nervousness and anxiety.
And we talk about that. And I think teaching our kids that skill of like, what is this? Right? Instead of eating away our own anxiety as, [00:37:00] as we age, I think is a really powerful tool too. Like helping them tap into what it might be for them.
Dr. Macnamara: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like your better, your tummy's making butterflies because you know, and you can attach it or not.
You know, I'm, I'm wondering if you're a little bit thoughtful about going into these environments and I always, you know, rule on the side of caution that if something is going on with a tummy that's go see your medical practitioner and mm-hmm. Have a conversation and and make sure you clear out that there isn't anything physical if it's long lasting or see your naturopath or whatever it might be.
Crystal: Mm-hmm. But
Dr. Macnamara: I get tons of referrals. And from naturopaths, you see lots of kids coming through like, no, this is anxiety. No, this is anxiety. Mm-hmm. And doctors as well, right? No, this is your child's anxious. But that's good. They've done their due diligence, that way. But yeah, so much of our emotions get mixed up here.
And again, it's a surveillance system, it's a detection system because of course you're not going to eat when you're alarmed because your body. Is not invested in digestion, it's invested in survival. So what happens is you lose your [00:38:00] appetite. You can vomit, you can, you don't feel hungry. And because the body's aimed at taking care of an emotional problem, we know that a lot of the energy in the, in the brain, I.
Goes towards solving emotional problems, and alarm is one of the biggest ones. Mm-hmm. And so it, it can take energy from the gut and digestion to try to solve this emotional problem. Now, we were never meant to know all this. This is like, yeah. You know, so much research, but what, what did a caretaker, what were we born with and wired up with?
We are, we're wired up with this capacity to pay attention. Mm-hmm. Something's not right. How do I help get to the answer to that? Come here. You need a hug? We're going somewhere new. Don't worry. I'm with you. I've got you. Here we go. Yes. Sometimes tummies get stirred up or, you know what? We're gonna stay back.
'cause I don't think you're feeling well. I just wanna, you know, do you feel like eating, not eating? You know, like that's, have you gone to the bathroom? How many times? What have you done? Like, you're just asking all these, feel the forehead have a temperature. Like you're, this is what, this is what our, our [00:39:00] parents did.
Trust, Intuition, and Parenting from the Inside Out
You know, before we, I don't
Crystal: know, I don't know if you remember this conversation. I remember it because I, it stu stood out to me so much. But in the last podcast interview that we did years ago, you said that, you know, when you had a grandmother that was cooking you like root vegetables or something, she didn't have to look at a recipe.
She just like knew how to do it. And she, and you said like we all have parental intuition also. Like we don't have to look up a recipe and just know, like ask outside of ourselves for all the answers, but like naturally what is coming to us, and I think that's what you're saying here too, is like absolutely we are born with that intuitive parental guidance system and it's just tapping into that instead of.
Looking for the recipe constantly. It's like, okay, just tap into those natural responses.
Dr. Macnamara: Yeah. And you may decide to get your child some help based on that. They, they, I read one study that said that the biggest mistake that emergency room docs make when they're treating children. They don't listen to the parents and take
Crystal: Oh yes.
Dr. Macnamara: Like they, they take what [00:40:00] they say for granted, like that child, that parent, and, and that's the way I operate in my practice is that that
Crystal: parent
Dr. Macnamara: has an unparalleled amount of information and intuition and emotions and logic, and they can put that together and descriptions. If you have someone who cares about a child, that person.
Is a reservoir of information about that child. And so we,
Crystal: we
Dr. Macnamara: that not neglected, they might not understand what's happening, that's why they're coming to you and asking for advice. But Yeah. And I've had parents like that who said, Nope, something's wrong. He said the meningitis test was negative, but I don't believe it.
There's something wrong with my kid brought 'em back. There was an error in the test. The child did have men meningitis. She saved life. It's just like I knew something was wrong. Absolutely. My child, and I've had that with my, myself as well. Mm-hmm. with dental appointments where my daughter. Didn't have enough, you know, freezing, but couldn't talk.
I'm like, I can see it on her face. There's not enough freezing. She's in excruciating pain. No, she's had her liver, she's in pain. And afterwards my daughter said, I felt [00:41:00] like I was gonna die. I was in so much pain. Like, you know, as a parent, you know, if you were tethered in, if you're not checked out, if you're not too emotionally numb yourself, if you, trust yourself enough.
Not perfectly. If you trust yourself enough, you, you're picking up tons of information there. That's really important.
Closing Reflections on Connection and Nourishment
Crystal: Yes. I love that. That you're tethered in. Yeah. Oh, I think that is a perfect stopping spot. I think that idea of can we tether in, can we do the work we need to do internally so that we, we can be attuned to that.
And just knowing that that is in us, like that is the trust piece. Like it already is in there. Trust is just like recognizing that it is and taking time to listen to that. So thank you so much. Thank you. For this opportunity, we're gonna have, a link to your course. There's gonna be a wait list link to your course, gather to Eat, and we'll also have a link to nourish to your book and and people can connect with you there.
And also on your website, right, dr debra mcnamara.org. [00:42:00] McNamara. Do ca McNamara do ca Okay. mcnamara.ca. So head there also. And, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this insight with us.
Dr. Macnamara: Great. Thanks so much for having me, crystal. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
Crystal: If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, I would love for you to help spread the word by getting this message of support and guidance out to as many people as possible.
So text it to your best friend or tag me on Instagram and share it. Leave a review, rate it, subscribe it, or follow on your favorite platform. Send me a DM on IG letting me know which parts have impacted you or what you'd like to see on future episodes. We'll see you next week.
