S05|17 - Positive Discipline and Peer-Oriented Attachment with Sarah R. MooreNov 07, 2022
Sarah R. Moore is the founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting and author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior. She's a public speaker, armchair neuroscientist, and most importantly, a Mama. She's a lifelong learner with training in child development, trauma recovery, interpersonal neurobiology, and improv comedy. As a certified Master Trainer in conscious parenting, she helps bring JOY, EASE, and CONNECTION back to families around the globe. Follow her on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, & Twitter.
What we talk about today:
- What positive discipline is and why it gets confused
- Why punitive parenting seems to “work”
- How to “discipline” your child in ways that truly do “work”
- Sarah’s book and some of the tools that can help us parent with peaceful discipline
- Re-training our neural pathways from punitive parenting (and having patience and compassion for our un-learning process)
- How to deal with our kids’ tricky behaviour
Coaching has changed my own life, and the lives of my clients. More connection, more healing, more harmony and peace in our most important relationships. It increases confidence in any parenting challenges and helps you be the guide to teach your children the family values that are important to you- in clear ways. If you feel called to integrate this work in a deeper way and become a parenting expert, that’s what I’m here for.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Hi, I'm Crystal The Parenting Coach. Parenting is the thing that some of us just expected to know how to do. It's not like other areas of your life where you go to school to be taught, get on the job training, or have mentors to help you learn. Now, you can get that help here.
I believe that your relationship with your children is one of the most important aspects of your life, and the best way that you can make a positive impact on the world and on the future. I've made parental relationships my life study, and use life coaching tools with connection-based parenting to build amazing relationships between parents and their children.
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Positive Discipline and Peer-Oriented Attachment with Sarah R. Moore.
What Sarah R. Moore does, and how she got started
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Sarah R. Moore is the founder of Dandelion Seeds Positive Parenting and author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior. She's a public speaker, armchair neuroscientist, and most importantly, a Mama. She's a lifelong learner with training in Child Development, Trauma Recovery, Interpersonal Neurobiology, and Improv Comedy. As a certified Master Trainer in Conscious Parenting, she helps bring JOY, EASE, and CONNECTION back to families around the globe.
Hi Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Sarah R. Moore: Hello. I am so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. I am excited because Sarah and I found each other online; and we've been chatting before we started recording, and we just are so aligned on so many things and I already know that this is going to be an amazing episode.
So, what I first want to dig into is the word 'discipline'. Well, I guess, I should preface that by saying Sarah has a book that's going to be coming out right away. Why don't you actually introduce yourself and what you do and a little bit about your book, and then let's dig into what discipline is.
Sarah R. Moore: Sure, absolutely. So, my name is Sarah R. Moore. I include the R because if you google 'Sarah Moore', you get 10 billion other people. So, I include R because then you can actually find me.
I am the author of Peaceful Discipline: Story Teaching, Brain Science & Better Behavior. I am a certified Master Trainer in Conscious or Gentle Parenting. I am a coach to hundreds and hundreds of parents and caregivers around the world.
I have background in Negotiation, Conflict Resolution, Interpersonal Neurobiology, Trauma Recovery, and Improv Comedy.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Awesome.
Sarah R. Moore: And if you put all of that together in one package, as it relates to Child Development, that was really the genesis of how my book came to be because I really want people to understand; what discipline is and what it isn't, how many discipline strategies can backfire – and how we can actually parent in a way that brings more connection, peace, and joy to our parenting journey. Not only for us as the parent, but also to our children. So, we just plain like each other. That's what we want, right?
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes. We would like to actually enjoy parenting and enjoy motherhood and enjoy being together. And I think a lot of times, we logically understand that that's what our goal is, but day-to-day doesn't always necessarily feel that way. So, I love that intro.
How did you actually get into this work? Was it through your own kids and through challenges you had with them, or was it just through coaching other people? Like what did-- What did that look like for you?
Sarah R. Moore: I love this question. In fact, I answer it as part of the intro of my book. Basically, what happened is I worked for 20 years in corporate America before having my daughter. So, I knew a lot about a lot of things, but parenting was not necessarily one of them.
So, when I had my daughter, I took her to her well-check visits with her pediatrician. And by the way, what I'm about to say is not a knock on pediatricians. There are some fantastic ones out there, but the one that I took her to for her four-month check, he had all the accolades on his wall.
He seems like he was a really great, brilliant doctor, but he said it very offhandedly to me at the beginning of that appointment, "By the way, I realize she's four months old now, so if she ever cries, make sure you don't pick her up for any reason because she's manipulating you…she's trying to trick you."
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Wow.
Sarah R. Moore: And every fiber of my mama being went into freeze mode. We talk about fight, flight or freeze. I just froze and my anger just rose up in my belly; and I thought, 'What in the world do you mean, don't pick up my baby?'
I had just had a pregnancy loss not long before the pregnancy that resulted in my daughter. So, he had no idea how much I longed to be there for her day and night, and what an incredible gift it was to be able to pick her up when she needed me.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: And how four months old babies can literally not manipulate somebody because that takes a lot more cognitive processes than a four-month-old child has. But anyways, keep--
Sarah R. Moore: Yes, it was completely inaccurate based on nothing whatsoever. There's no science in the world that would support what he is saying. So, I went home and I started researching because I had so much fire in my belly about, 'I need to know the facts about how my child is not manipulating me, the benefits of picking her up, all of these things.' And I started to research, and then I started to write.
And the thing is, people started paying attention to what I was writing because they were saying, "Hey, Sarah's not just some random mama on the internet sharing her opinion…everything she shares is based on evidence, it's based on research, it's based on science."
And by the way, it's based on faith because I believe those things can coincide and coexist. And the thing is, when people started asking me for questions, I realized I really wanted to have all of the credentials behind me so that I could support them and be able to point to the research every single time.
And that's why I started getting, you know, the certifications and all of the things I needed to be able to say, "I actually do know what I'm talking about." I don't pretend to be the expert in every situation. And I'll very, very easily tell you when I don't know the answer to something.
But if it's something I do know, I'm glad people to research that backs up their innate desire to have a connection-based relationship with their children. And that's really where it all started for me. So, now, I'm thankful to him for making me mad because it really set the stage for me doing this work.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Hey, that is such a good origin story. I love hearing people's stories about how they got into it because I think that there's always a reason; you don't just like wake up one day and are like, 'I'm going to do this.'
Like, maybe you do. Maybe there's people that do that. But I love hearing kind of that beginning story and how you decided to do something about it and then how you are able to help so many other families because of your decision to keep at that. Okay, I love that.
What positive discipline is and why it gets confused
Crystal The Parenting Coach: And your book is all about Peaceful Discipline, correct?
Sarah R. Moore: Yeah.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, can we first talk about just the discipline part? Because I think this is something that we as parents in our world today get mixed up a lot. So, tell me a little bit about maybe what people think discipline is, and what your version of discipline is.
Sarah R. Moore: For sure. So, discipline, as you have already alluded to, it's a really loaded word emotionally, even if we know that the word discipline means to teach, many of us still kind of get our hackles up when we hear the word because we think it means something punitive.
We may have some emotional history with the word, perhaps in our family of origin when our family said it's time for discipline that meant something scary to us as a child.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Mm-Hmm.
Sarah R. Moore: It doesn't have to be a negative consequence; it doesn't have to be punitive. When we think about what teaching actually is – I might as well bring in a little bit of brain science – when we are afraid, we literally cannot learn…the learning part of our brain shuts off because we go into survival mode.
So, if we want our children to be learning from us – i.e., our teaching or our discipline – they have to feel emotional safety. So, the reason I call the book Peaceful Discipline is it is a reminder to us as the parent to keep discipline peaceful – not only in what we are doing, but even more importantly, how our children are perceiving our discipline.
Our intention doesn't really matter if they're misunderstanding it. So, if we are punishing them for your own good, if they still feel scared by that, it is not peaceful discipline.
So, it's a two-way street; and I really want to bring people back to the core and the heart of connection because everything in the book is about creating emotional safety.
And I give a lot of very, very practical actionable examples of what it looks like in real life with all sorts of different scenarios, many from my own parenting journey. By the way, more often things I got wrong and then I had to repair; and then I learned, 'Oh, this is why--'
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Amen. That's how-- That's how we learn.
Sarah R. Moore: Exactly. Exactly. But it's really all coming back to, how can we have a connection-based relationship because that is how our children are going to learn.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Okay. I love that you brought brain science into it too, because this is something I talk about a lot is connection versus punishments. And I think that people often hear discipline and think punishment.
I mean, that's what I thought, right? Because it was always like, 'Okay, here's your discipline' or like, basically, 'Let's dole out the punishment that you get now because you didn't do such and such or because you did something'.
And so, I love redefining this word for what it really truly means. I mean, if you look it up, it literally is like a recipient of learning. And I often tell people, "When there's shame, when there's fear present…there is no learning." There's no learning. But I love that you have the brain behavior science backing that, that you can't actually learn when there's fear present.
Why punitive parenting seems to “work”
Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, now that we know what discipline actually is and what peaceful discipline is, why do you think parents struggle so much to actually discipline in this way, versus going back to the kind of rewards or punishment or coercive type mentality?
Sarah R. Moore: Such a good question. A couple of things. Number one is many of us were raised that way. So, we simply have – again, I can frame this in brain science – we have neural connections in our brains, we have basically a roadmap. That's what I mean by neural connections.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah.
Sarah R. Moore: Basically, a roadmap in the brain that says, "When X happens you do Y." And it takes proactive and conscious effort to redesign that roadmap, or in other words, to recreate those neural pathways in ways where X doesn't have to lead to Y…X can lead back to B, it can go some totally other new direction that is peaceful.
But a lot of it is simply the stuff we have brought in because it's what our brains were trained to do, and that is no fault of our own. So, that's part of the reason we should be very gentle with ourselves if punitive parenting has been our history because it's really hard to unlearn things; at the same time, it is absolutely possible to unlearn things.
The other reason a lot of parents choose punitive parenting is, I'll be really blunt, it tends to "work". And I'm doing the air quotes because fear can be a motivator. However, it's not the kind of motivator that we actually want for our children because when children perpetually feel fear, the adult may perceive behavioral improvements.
The negative outcomes of punitive parenting
But what we know according to the research is that children are actually more likely to, number one, continue their behavior. Number two, become experts at hiding their behavior. And number three, feel less inclined to go to their parents when they're struggling with something and instead turn to their peers.
And this is where a lot of tricky behavior tends to snowball. Because if you have a child who's emotionally struggling and trying to say through their tricky behavior, "Hey, I need some help here…I need some guidance, I need some discipline."
And I'm intentionally using that word here. If the parent responds in a way that is not peaceful, the child is more likely to get into more trouble down the road.
A punitive existence is linked to things like poorer outcomes in relationships, higher divorce rates, higher substance abuse rates…all sorts of really, really tricky stuff.
It doesn't mean that every child who was punished is going to have a horrible future, I'm not saying that at all. But I'm saying that when a child feels emotionally safe with the parent because they're not afraid of them, they will be so much more likely to go to the parent and say, "I need your help, will you support me?"
And then, the parent with their love and their guidance and their benevolent teaching can help guide the child in a way that actually is linked to substantially better outcomes – not only short-term, but also long-term for the child and every other relationship they touch throughout their lives.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Mm-Hmm. I love that you said that because I think that we often feel like it's easier if we just like use that force right away…if we use that more punitive way of parenting because we're like, 'See it worked, like they stopped it.' Right?
And so, visibly, it kind of looks like it does work on the surface – but like you alluded to, there's so many other things that happen down the road; and even just not down the road--
I'll give a quick example, but yesterday, my daughter got out of the shower and I'm trying to get her to brush her hair before school. My three older kids are homeschooled and this year, she's trying out public school.
And so, everybody else is sleeping and I'm trying to get her ready; and I was feeling rushed, so I was moving into more of the 'force mode' like, "No, we need to do this right now."
And not only did it not work, she just like exploded and I couldn't get her to school. Like it took me, I had to like not put her on the bus and two hours later, I eventually get her. And it was like this whole balloon of a morning that if I had just been more peaceful and more calm in myself internally in that moment, I know what a difference that makes because this morning was completely different and everything went smoothly.
But I love what you said about it really depends on how our parents parented and how their parents parented. Right? That's what generational patterns are. And that was what it was like for me, for sure. Like, I thought that I would just be patient and loving and kind, and everything would come so easily…this is because I didn't have kids yet, obviously.
Re-training our neural pathways from punitive parenting (and having patience and compassion for our un-learning process)
Crystal The Parenting Coach: If you have kids, you realize that's not always the way it goes. But then as soon as I had kids, I realized I was actually a super impatient person because in my home when you were angry, anger was always shown very loud. It was like either screaming or yelling or some sort of like explosion of behavior.
And so, for me, I started seeing this explosion of behavior in myself and was like, 'Wait a second, I already had decided I wasn't going to do this, but it's happening somehow without my knowledge or consent…it's just happening.'
And so, I think it's like intentionally helping yourself to make those changes to your neural pathways. But I think also just giving yourself so much patience and so much compassion with that process because it's going to take some time, for sure.
Sarah R. Moore: Absolutely. And I love that example. And that's a perfect segue into one of the criticisms of peaceful discipline because – and I don't mean the book, I mean the concept.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes, yes.
Sarah R. Moore: Because a lot of times people are like, 'I don't have time to be a gentle parent, I just need my child to do what I tell them to do when I tell them to do it.'
But in your example, you know firsthand – and from me to you, all the grace I can possibly give you because I too have been there – but you know that you ended up losing two hours yesterday--
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes.
Sarah R. Moore: -that you did not want to lose. So, you invest the time either way. But yet when you create a basis, a foundation of trust and connection, those situations like the one you described get to be the exception. They get to be the anomaly rather than the norm.
And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking, I'm going to make a guess here that you, if you're going to spend two hours of your day, you would much rather spend them peacefully than in a stressed-out situation with your daughter or whoever you may be with.
We're investing the time either way. So, when we invest in peaceful discipline, when we invest in peaceful parenting, we are creating that foundation of safety so that we have fewer of those messy moments.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Mm-Hmm. We definitely have fewer. And I've seen, especially with my neurodivergent kids, that their behavior improved drastically when I started to change my own, and that it changed our relationship. And because I changed that relationship that their behavior improved also.
And this doesn't happen immediately, for sure – but over time, it really does. And my teenagers are just so lovely. They're just lovely, lovely people. Which is awesome to see because I'm like, 'Okay, it does work.'
All this like, you know, hard work because it is, it does take a lot of like inner work and inner healing ourselves to change the ways that we've been parented.
I also want to bring up one thing that you mentioned where sometimes you don't notice right away that their behavior-- Like my example with my daughter, it happened right away – it was pretty immediate to see the outcome – but she could have just decided to be like scared or worried or whatever about my explosion at her.
And so, she could have just decided to brush her hair and then just go to school and not really talk about it; and that can happen. And then over time, when they don't feel that safety and the security in our relationship, then they turn to their peers.
And my favorite parenting book from years ago was, Hold on to Your Kids by Dr. Gordon Neufeld. He calls this peer-oriented attachment. So, how do you help? I think this is one example that I want to get into because a lot of my clients will come and say, "Oh, but my kid's older…like, you only work with parents of kids that are five or six or seven or whatever, right?"
And I'm like, "No, no, no…this is a-- this is a philosophy, this is a style, I've worked with people who had adult children that they were working on their relationship with them."
How to deal with our kids’ tricky behavior
Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, let's right now focus on teens for a minute where maybe you are noticing some of what we call peer-oriented attachment. And that would be going to their teens for that emotional support – not necessarily caring about what you say or do – going to them for advice, caring about what their friends think more than about what you think.
And also, maybe sometimes keeping it secret too, not necessarily opening up about their life to you. So, a parent comes, they read your book and they're like, in this stage and they're like, "Is it too late? What do I do now?"
What advice would you give them?
Sarah R. Moore: Oh, I'm so glad you asked this. I want to be very clear, very direct. It is not too late; it is never too late. Dr. Daniel J. Siegel, who is a bestselling author and parenting expert and all good things when it comes to parenting; he tells a story that he once helped a man, who I believe was in his late 80s if I'm not remembering his age.
My only question is whether he was in his 90s or his 80s, but he went back and he healed a lot of his family of origin stuff. And you might look at a man that's pressing 90 years old and go, 'That might be too late.' It's still not.
So, for those of you who are raising teens, I want you to know, interestingly, there was just a study released by Penn State University that talked about the extra importance of parenting for connection in the teen years.
Because what happens statistically is a lot of people start off with gentler parenting – but then by the time their children become teens, all of a sudden, some switch flips and they start being more harsh, having more punitive consequences…you know, being tougher on their kids.
But what actually happens to those children is those children start to absorb a feeling of, 'Maybe I'm not wanted here,' and that can actually, in a very unnatural way, make them more peer-oriented.
But the thing is, they're about to step out the door metaphorically…you know, they're about to leave the nest.
And those kids who leave the nest without that connection are sometimes the ones who maybe don't come back the following Thanksgiving or whatever holiday may be because they're feeling like, 'By the end, my parents didn't even want me around anymore.' So, I'm not saying this to scare people or make them sad.
What I'm saying is even if your teens are acting more defiant, even if your teens are leaning into their peers more, even if your teens are exhibiting all of the signs of 'I don't need you as much', the reality is they need you more than ever because they're scared too.
They need to know that you are always going to be a soft place to land, and that they will always have a key to your front door as well as a key to your heart. And when you parent for connection, even in the teen years, you lay the groundwork for what it's going to be like when they're 20 or 30 or 40. So, it's very important, and it is absolutely not too late for parents of teenagers.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, I love that. I think when I think of like all this misbehavior that people are seeing and they're like, 'No, but now I have to use punitive punishments, it didn't work… it worked okay when they were little, but it's not working anymore.'
They're showing you something, they're screaming something at you. They're like, I need-- And it's not the words they're actually screaming at you – if they're screaming at you, by the way. It's underneath that. Right?
What they're really saying to you is that behavior is communicating something to you; and it's like, "I need connection, I need support, I need emotional safety…like there's something going on with me now, and I need this help."
And maybe they're just nervous about, you know, the coming years or who they are, and context of the world; and there's so many things that they're going through, and we want to be that safe and secure place for us.
And sometimes it's easier for them to feel that when they're little; and we're the ones like physically feeding them and tucking them into bed at night, and there's just more opportunities for connection.
So, I think it takes more intentional effort when they're teens to still choose to do those things. Like we can still tuck them into bed at night. We can still take times to, you know, have conversations with them. We can get interested in the things they're interested in.
And I love what you said so emphatically, it is never too late. And I believe, like you said, it isn't…you can be 90, it doesn't matter how old your kids are or the age of yourself, but we can always do this work and change as we see how impactful that change is in that relationship. I just think it's the most-- It's the most important thing we can do, really.
Sarah R. Moore: It really is. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I want to be clear that…the focus of my book, the way it's written, it sounds like it's going to be more for parenting younger children – you know, from toddler, all the way up to middle school issues. So, that's technically the target range.
But here's the secret that a lot of people don't realize, and I'm going to make it not a secret right now; the approaches that I recommend – you know, parenting through stories, parenting through play, parenting through connection, and I give a lot of examples of what that can sound like at different ages – these things don't actually ever expire.
I use a lot of these approaches with my husband who's 52 years old, when we're trying to have connection. Like, you know, it's great for-- You know, I want people to think of this as the foundation of the house that you are building.
So, if you are the parent or caregiver or educator of younger children, this is going to lay the groundwork for what the relationship is like in the teen years or beyond. So, you know, although the book is technically marketed toward that younger audience – like I said, up until about middle school or so – the concepts really never do expire. Connection is good forever and ever.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes. It's like the deepest human need that we all have. And I think that it's like a manual for emotional health, right? It doesn't matter-- Emotionally healthy relationships, it doesn't matter what age, because I give parents book recommendations.
One of my other favorites is Rest, Play, Grow by Dr. Deborah MacNamara; and it's called Rest, Play, Grow: Making Sense of Preschoolers (or Anyone Who Acts Like One).
And when I say that people are like, "Oh, well, my kids are older."
And I'm like, 'I don't think I read a book that helped me understand the adults in my life more than that book…it helped me understand adult behaviors that I was seeing around me more than anything else.'
And so, I always tell people like, "It's not-- just because there's like colorful things on the front page does not mean that you can't read this." If you have teens or tweens or don't even have any children left in the house, it's still so helpful.
Sarah R. Moore: Absolutely. Both of the books you recommended are rock solid, and they're on my recommendation list as well – so, totally agree.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: They are great. They're great. Okay.
Sarah’s book and some of the tools that can help us parent with peaceful discipline
Crystal The Parenting Coach: So, while we're wrapping up, I would love for you to – I know this is kind of putting you on the spot here, but to – think of like one, you can also give us two, if you can't just think of one, more concrete tip or tool from your book.
For somebody that's maybe finding it challenging, maybe they've listened to this whole episode and they're like, 'Yep, yep, I agree…like, I am doing the work I'm trying to change, but still finding it challenging to connect with that teen or that tween or even that younger child.' What's one concrete tip or tool that they could use right now to improve that?
Sarah R. Moore: Such a good question. What's coming up for me right now is the entire book, but I'm going to try to summarize it.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: The entire-- Just go read the book, that's the tip.
Sarah R. Moore: Yeah. Exactly, read the book. Yeah, I mean, really, it's literally full of example after examples. So, you know, one of my pet peeves when it comes to a lot of parenting book, is that it's so philosophical but not so practical.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yes.
Sarah R. Moore: So, I try to be really practical too, but something that's coming up for me right now when I kind of whittle it down is how often we make the mistake of trying to teach or discipline in the moment.
There is an incredible fallacy out there that if we don't teach right away, we miss the opportunity and the child will think they've gotten away with it. Well, that's false. I mean, it's simply not true. We have all sorts of ways – and again, I get into the details – but we have ways we can teach proactively in the moment, and retroactively…so before, during, and after things happen.
But what I want parents to do is actually do most of the teaching outside of the moments of conflict – when the child is emotionally regulated…when you the adult are emotionally regulated, when you feel peaceful, when you feel connected, when you have the child's attention.
It can be through story time; it can be through play. And again, lots and lots of examples. But when your brains are basically both on line for learning because of that emotional safety, that is going to be the optimal time for teaching children how to get along well in the world as opposed to, you know, hair on fire moments where we think 'I just need to teach them right the second, I need to teach them a lesson'.
They're not going to learn a thing in those moments. We really need to separate the two. And that might be one of the most basic practical tips I can give to how to make learning stick better for children.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Oh, I love that one. I heard somebody say, "Don't parent in the fire". And that's my go-to phrase now.
I'm like, 'Okay, I'm in the fire right now…I'm in my red zone, I'm feeling heated – like, do not parent here.' Because just like you said, when there's fear present, the kids can't learn.
I think it's also like when those strong emotions are present…when we're high on emotions, we're low on logic. And so, our teaching is not going to be effective and their learning won't be effective.
So, I think that is a great tool…is like, if you're feeling like it's challenging to implement this kind of parenting style, for sure, that was my best tip also, when I very first started this – that was a thing that helped me the most was just like, stop trying to solve things in the moment. Like, just let yourself calm down first, and then circle back to it later.
Sarah R. Moore: For sure. Yep. I feel that.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I think that everything that you've said today is so in alignment with what I talk about on this podcast and what I spread to the world. So, I am grateful for you because I do not have time to write books right now.
And I'm grateful that you have written a lovely book for us all to go and read, but sounds like it's just great. I do-- I agree with you; I read a lot of books where I felt like they were a little dry or a little theory based heavy, and it's kind of hard for us to be like, "Okay, but now what do we actually do? Like what does this look like in our home?" And so, I love that you put so many examples in there.
So, I'll have the links to everything. And by the time this airs, hopefully, the book is out and published. If not, it will be shortly. So, make sure you hop on her email list and you get notified of that if it's not out yet. And, thanks so much for being with us, Sarah.
Sarah R. Moore: I really appreciate you. Thank you for having me.
Crystal The Parenting Coach: Thanks for listening. If you'd like to help spread this work to the world, share this episode on social media and tag me, send it to a friend, or leave a quick rating and review below so more people can find me. If you'd like more guidance on your own parenting journey, reach out.